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-   -   Front Sight Firearms Training Institute (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1169)

ronward March 20th, 2008 04:25 AM

Front Sight Firearms Training Institute
 
Nice pics Jack, looks like a great session with some varying weather mixed in.

John which of your handguns are you using? I can make out Thomas' Sig, is yours the P7? Any close-ups?

What takeaways do you have from your time in training?

JSQ March 20th, 2008 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronward

What takeaways do you have from your time in training?


Go to Front Sight yourself so you will "truly know what you did not know".


I thought I knew what I was doing before Front Sight.

I didn't know shit.

traveltoad March 20th, 2008 07:07 AM

Now you are a badass.

traveltoad March 20th, 2008 07:13 AM

Were your certificates specific to the firearm with which you took the final test.

DJ Menasco March 20th, 2008 07:48 AM

John,

You look uncomfortable in this pic. What was the premise behind this exercise?


traveltoad March 20th, 2008 07:58 AM

Looking for a real gun?

johnlee March 20th, 2008 08:00 AM

I was freezing. I was cold enough that my stomach was rock hard and I was shivering. You can see in my shin areas how hard the wind is blowing. Same for Jack in this pic:




Jack had better clothes though.

johnlee March 20th, 2008 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronward
John which of your handguns are you using? I can make out Thomas' Sig, is yours the P7? Any close-ups?



I had my P7M8. I think this is the most close-up pic we had from the weekend:




It's just a standard P7M8. Bone stock.

JSQ March 20th, 2008 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlee
I was freezing. I was cold enough that my stomach was rock hard and I was shivering. You can see in my shin areas how hard the wind is blowing.


It was so dark and windy that Crawford, the crusty old Marine/Federal Agent, had to dress up like a ninja to fight the cold:


johnlee March 20th, 2008 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronward
What takeaways do you have from your time in training?



Too many to list, but here are a few.

(1) Make sure you break in your leather holster before you to school. I don't carry so my holster was brand spanking new and was really tight. You can tell by my body language in this pic that I'm having a hard time just removing the pistol from the holster:




You can see how my holster is tight enough that I'm pulling my pants up during the presentation:




This shifting of the clothing is not a good thing. Over time, my shirt got pulled up and got loosey:




My holster was tight enough that it got pulled up with every draw and pushed down with every reholstering. My right hip got shredded over the weekend.

The holster started breaking in and now it's pretty good. A few hundred more draws and it should be cranking. Even though my holster was tight to start, I love it.

(2) Don't have sharp edges on your pistol. There was a LA Sheriff tag team in our class:




The woman had an adjustable rear sight on her M9:




Check out her support hand. Sharp edges and immediate action drills don't mix. Her hand got worse and worse as the class went on:




(3) Don't shoot the good guys. In the man-on-man shoot-off, I wanted to win so badly that I shot too fast and tagged the hostage by mistake:




I was pissed.

(4) Mike Peters moonlights as a Front Sight instructor:



expeditionswest March 20th, 2008 10:02 AM

I am digging the pack - Jack


Oh, and if anyone ever comes to Gunsite, let me know. We are about 20 minutes from the facility.

traveltoad March 20th, 2008 10:44 AM

I will be there the end of April for the Shotgun 260 class.

expeditionswest March 20th, 2008 10:56 AM

Perfect! You are welcome to stay with us if you would like Aaron

ronward March 20th, 2008 11:56 AM

Some good detail John, thanks!

traveltoad March 20th, 2008 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by expeditionswest
Perfect! You are welcome to stay with us if you would like Aaron


Wow. Thank you but I could never impose like that. I would love to meet up for dinner though!

expeditionswest March 20th, 2008 01:15 PM

Lets plan on dinner then.

But just know it would not be imposing at all. Our home is always open to friends and fellow adventurers :)

scott (@) expeditionswest.com

david March 20th, 2008 01:23 PM

gettin schooled with Dr. P, I love it
 
The photos are nice, looks like you all had a great experience out there, lots of new situations and exposure to a lot of information.
Training at different schools and with different instructors all lead to a greater level of skill at arms, definitely a good thing.

I'm glad to see you used the P7, John: my only time using it resulted in the slide getting launched during a clearance drill :) After Gabe stopped laughing, he told me to fetch the backup gun for the rest of the class.
DW

skippy3k March 20th, 2008 06:10 PM

Yeah Jack. I would be interested in learning more about that pack. I was on a serious pack search before the last La Carrera Panamericana race. Something like yours would have been great. (Maybe smaller, though.)

ronward March 20th, 2008 06:34 PM

Interesting discussion, I'd love to go to a training session like this.

For those of you who carry often, what type holster do you prefer. What are the CA laws on concealed carry for those of you there?

I'm licensed in GA and carry my .380 in an inside the waistband clip holster in the small of my back most of the time. I have the beltloop types for both the .380 and the larger P229 like John and Thomas show in their pics. Anyone rock a shoulder holster?

johnlee March 20th, 2008 07:56 PM

Ron, you should definitely go to school. It doesn't have to be a name school like Gunsite or Front Sight or Thunder Ranch or whatever. I'm sure you have a good school in your area. Even if you don't, take a few extra days off work and get trained.

Eric Siepmann March 21st, 2008 04:36 AM

Scratch Thunder Ranch for the entire year. Sold out! Looks very cool though.

traveltoad March 21st, 2008 06:03 AM

Gunsite has some openings.

JSQ March 21st, 2008 07:04 AM

So last night I shot my first Steel Challenge match at my local indoor range.

Here's a clip to show more or less what the format looks like:


We shot three 6-round attempts at three different target presentations. A number of shooters participated in a two-gun shoot with shotgun and pistol on the same targets. Although the format for the shooting was the same for each shooter, how you chose to shoot was not strictly regulated. This was the reason I was there.

I was looking for a way to stay tuned up, but didn't want to just punch paper on a lane at the range for a number of reasons. The first is that the regular range makes me jumpy. There are so many dangerous yahoos there that I spend more time watching them to see if they are about to cap me or themselves then I do focusing on my own practice. The second is that I wanted to shoot from a concealed holster and practice action drills. The third is that I wanted to shoot under some pressure be it from time or a crowd. I also didn't want to shoot anything where I would have to modify my technique and screw up my training. The steel challenge match was perfect for this.

First the challenge itself is a great filter for almost all the dangerous shooters. Even beyond that the match officials act as rangemasters and keep it safe. Second it's casual and fun. Lastly it's competitive.

The match had a great mix of people. There were highly competitve shooters rocking the spacey race guns with optics and hanger-holsters. There were combat marines. There was a fireman and a couple of cops. There was a guy sporting a HK P7M8. There was an 85 year old former policeman shooting his service patrolman revolver. Most impressively there was an 8-year old girl shooting a full-size Kimber 1911 .45 . I did a complete double-take when I saw this 4'8" girl walk in with her Roxy jeans, Reeboks, hooded sweatshirt, ponytail and a holstered 1911 with 5 magazines. The gun looked absolutlely massive on her. But she put the hurt on. She was not fast, but she was safe and I think she only missed a few targets all night. It was awesome. She told me she started shooting when she was 5. Her dad was with her but wasn't shooting. This girl was a little badass.

Although most people were focusing on their score and as such took whatever advantages they could get in gun or method I chose to shoot from a concealed holster and perform tactical reloads and after-action drills. Everybody was totally cool with it and everyone just let me do my thing. Interestingly, just before the match a number of participants brought up Front Sight. One was headed there soon and all the rest were busy trashing the place. "I wouldn't go to Front Sight unless the course was free and they paid for my gas." "Be careful and don't drink the koolaid. Don't believe everything they try to teach you." etc. I didn't say shit.

What I did do was shoot well.
Actually I shot very well.
I was easily in the top 5 shooters out of 25 and I smoked the suckers who were talking shit before the match. In fact, a number of people came up after my stages and suggested I shoot the IDPA and IPSC matches. The Marines came over and asked me what my rank was. Others assumed I was law enforcement. As Brad Ackerman said at Front Sight, "After attending Front Sight you will be more skilled than 99% of the gun-owning population including those that carry a gun for a living." It sounded like a bit of an exaggeration at the time, but it certainly was the case last night at the Steel Challenge.

I plan to make attending a habit and hopefully I will stay sharp.

I'll try to snap some pics at the next match.

traveltoad March 21st, 2008 07:33 AM

Nice!

I will have to look for something like that.

Nadir_E March 21st, 2008 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlee
Ron, you should definitely go to school. It doesn't have to be a name school like Gunsite or Front Sight or Thunder Ranch or whatever. I'm sure you have a good school in your area. Even if you don't, take a few extra days off work and get trained.


John's comment is worth repeating. Get trained. Expand your training, too - don't just patronize one school/instructor.

Add stress where you can to your practice as Jack described - if you can't do it under stress, you can't do it. Try doing things to raise your heart rate (run, jumping jacks, etc.) then shoot - a world of difference.

As for Ron's question about concealed carry in California - depends where you live. In the larger metropolitan areas, it's been my understanding that you have no hope of getting one unless you're exceptionally well connected with local government (before Chief Williams needed one, the city of LA hadn't issued a permit in over 20 years). In the rural counties I understand it's more like the rest of the country (i.e. no criminal record or history of mental illness and you'll probably get it). As with other states, the permit is valid state-wide.


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