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-   -   9mm vs.45 (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/forums/showthread.php?t=440)

utahdog2003 March 16th, 2005 12:40 PM

9mm vs. 45
 
question...

I'm making a new investment. I know the make, I know the model. Between these two caliber, what's your preference?

traveltoad March 16th, 2005 01:32 PM

You can't tease us like that! What's the make? the model?

johnlee March 16th, 2005 06:31 PM

What make and model you thinking about? I ask because you can't look at a caliber in the abstract. You have to look at the gun/caliber combo. For example, a 9mm in a P7 is a nice choice but a 1911 chambered in 9mm is a joke.

utahdog2003 March 17th, 2005 07:38 AM

sorry fellas....HK USP

any experiences with the USP that you would like to relate would be interesting as well.

johnlee March 17th, 2005 09:30 AM

I like the P2000 much better than the USP. The USP ain't got no soul.

utahdog2003 March 17th, 2005 10:15 AM

is that a pref based on 'friend of a friend let me shoot his at the range' experience, '500 rounds through my own animal' experience, or do you like it because the website says its for 'European Agencies'?

Getting a little stingy with me John. I just read through an encyclopedia on golf balls in another thread...where's the tech?

Come Come...elucidate your thoughts...;)

traveltoad March 17th, 2005 10:49 AM

I ain't no gun 'xpert... but I have shot the USP at the range. It did nothing for me. I'd go with a Glock before the USP.

But a P7.... ooo la la. :D

utahdog2003 March 17th, 2005 10:59 AM

Did the Glock 22 9 vs .40 comparo yesterday evening. Nice feeling from the 22 I guess, but I'm still motivatin' towards the USP 9. Call me a stick in the mud but I like the safety, thanks. (Please...no jokes about the 9 being the "bunny-fart round")

I'm mostly looking for info on the 45, and why to choose. I get the standard 9 vs.40 arguements, and the reasons why folks seem to rough each other up over the two. Frankly that choice seems to be very subjective...but the real wildcard is the .45. Why choose it?

david March 17th, 2005 11:26 AM

kinda depends on what the pistol is for...
 
9 mm is a good cheap round for plinking: I have a USP 9F that goes to the range, and have trained with it for a few years now. Easy to shoot, relatively accurate but not much good for self defense. It is not made very well, shake the pistol and it rattles, not much of a confidence builder.
The P7 is a good house gun, my kids can't (yet) depress the grip safety, but it is only a 9 mm. I've tried the P2000, better made, but it's a compact and I have trouble being accurate with it: but overall not bad.
I do volunteer work at the Santa Monica PD, and their issue sidearm is a USP 45: they tried other calibers but feel that the 45 is most effective when they really need it. The USP 45 is a bit more solid feeling than my 9, but it also rattles a bit, kinda odd. Low recoil for a 45.
I just got a used Sig 226 in 40 ca, will be using it for training classes: it feels very solid, no rattles, operates very smoothly, da/sa, and has a rail for a night light. I dropped it onto the garage floor (unloaded) to check for ruggedness, no problems, everything works fine.

In short, if you want a range gun, a 9 mm makes sense. If you plan to use it to protect yourself, maybe a 45 is a better choice. Try both at a range and get what feels/shoots best for you.
DW

johnlee March 17th, 2005 01:14 PM

P2000 and USP are basically the same gun. The P2000 has some nice features though. The edges are beveled, for example. The USP has a very square appearance and feel. I have a USP. I hate it. Get a P7.

Forget that stuff. This is bigger news. Peep this:

http://www.hkdefense.us/corporate/me...l?content=3949

Man, that is just sad. It's like Land Rover announcing the discontinuation of the Defender.

This sucks.

traveltoad March 17th, 2005 02:28 PM

LR is discontinuing the Defender????? ;)

johnlee March 17th, 2005 02:34 PM

Imagine the sensation you would feel if you saw an official press release by Land Rover saying the Defender was discontinued, effective immediately. How would you feel? That's how I feel now.

david March 17th, 2005 03:11 PM

and the P7 is no longer in production either...
 
That Jubilee edition with the wood grips is supposed to be the last 500. They were very vague at the Shot Show booth about this: folks were asking whether they are discontinued everywhere or just the US: no clear answer, but definitely in the US.
DW

johnlee March 17th, 2005 03:19 PM

Damn.

hochung March 17th, 2005 03:29 PM

damn john, you already have a few of them, you wanted more? LOL


james, when i was shopping for a pistol, i was in the same research... but i remember following someone's instructions ... and looked into the "business" end of a 1911. man, it's bad ass. so, if size matters, go with the .45.

utahdog2003 March 23rd, 2005 07:42 AM

any thoughts on the SIG p226?

you know, the best part of making this decision is the test driving!

choices, choices, choices! :cool:

JSQ March 23rd, 2005 09:42 AM

LOVE the sig.

i have no criticisms of this pistol.
i always thought that the proximity of the decocker, slide release and mag release would be akward, but it is suprisingly natural.

plus i like external hammers. there are arguments against them but from a style perspective i dig them.
i think the sig has to be one of the best double-tap / follow-up pistols out there.

now in one sense it's not a true german sig and all that. not made by j.p. sauer and whatnot, but it's a great pistol nonetheless.

now as for 9 vs. 45 it's sort of a pointless debate, but I won't let that deter me.

9mm.

think of all the great 9mm pistols throughout history in comparison to .45s

many pistols originally chambered in other rounds were perfected by the switch to 9mm. and others designed specfically for the round have been excellent.

Luger
C96 Mauser
P38
Browning Hi-Power
Hk p7
Sig P210

oh and no one else does, but i still like the beretta 92. It's not reliable at all, but i dig the fixed bbl and i shoot it better than anything else. also, like the hi-power, capacity was a design priority not an afterthought and the gun holds lots of rounds. it isn't stuffed with them. they fit.

Other firearms, pistol and submachinegun alike could not be improved by a switch from 9mm to something else or were best left as they were or were never changed.

especially subs:
MP40
MP5
Uzi

Certainly the thompson was an effective weapon, but if imitation is the sincerest form of flattery why wasn't it widely copied like great 9mm designs? The reality is that it can be a heavy akward weapon for a sub and it's extremely difficulty to produce. A lot of these problems stem from the .45 chambering and open bolt design. War era thompsons cost $350 to produce in comparison to the $15 for a M3. Not that I like the M3, I hate it, but it does illustrate the price gap.

I suppose that since .45 ACP was developed for the 1911 style pistol and everyone loves it so much, the devout would contend that it was perfect from the get go and never needed changing but I dismiss this argument. Firearm design moves forward. It improves. It refines. Even the 1911 changed rapidly from the 1911 to 1911A1. There are arguably better .45s out there today e.g. Glock, USP, etc. But these are late comers. not only are they recent designs but they are adaptations of pistols first designed to be 9mm.

My first pistol was a 9mm. It's now 92 years old and still shoots well.

traveltoad March 23rd, 2005 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by david
I've tried the P2000, better made, but it's a compact and I have trouble being accurate with it: but overall not bad.
I do volunteer work at the Santa Monica PD, and their issue sidearm is a USP 45: they tried other calibers but feel that the 45 is most effective when they really need it. The USP 45 is a bit more solid feeling than my 9, but it also rattles a bit, kinda odd. Low recoil for a 45.


David, which USP do they use? If you have shot one (a 45) what did you think?

I've been thinking about getting a 45...

johnlee March 23rd, 2005 10:38 AM

Jack, are we talking about the same P226?


Quote:

Originally Posted by JSQ
i think the sig has to be one of the best double-tap / follow-up pistols out there.


Incidentally, the term "double tap" is an imprecise term. Jeff Cooper uses the terms "hammer" and "controlled pair" to distinguish between the two totally different forms of quick two-shot delivery, and I believe he is completely correct in this regard. The "hammer" has the shooter aim the first shot and the second shot is not aimed. As soon as the pistol comes down from recoil, the shooter presses the trigger again to discharge a second shot. The weapon is aligned kinesthetically for the second shot and there is no sight alignment or verification for the second shot. Obviously, one uses the hammer from very close range. The "controlled pair" is very different and has the shooter aiming both shots. He aims the first and fires, lets the pistol recoil, then aims the second shot and fires. The difference in cadence between the hammer and controlled pair is slight, but it's there. The hammer and controlled pair are delivered at different ranges and circumstances.

The 226 is the one of the best hammer and controlled pair pistols out there? LOL. I think the 226 is one of the worst pistols in this respect. The first shot is DA and the second shot is SA. Both the DA pull and SA pull on the 226 are jacked up. The DA pull is very long and heavy with lots of stack-up. The SA pull has lots of take-up and lots of overtravel after the release. The reach to the trigger is too long in the DA mode and too short in the SA mode. To execute a hammer or controlled pair with the 226, the shooter has to deal with not only two different trigger pulls, but also two terrible trigger pulls. This is a horrible trigger design.

The 226 also suffers from a very high bore axis. Put a 226 in your left hand a Glock or P7 in your right hand. The difference is remarkable. The higher bore axis exerts greater leverage against your hand and increases muzzle flip. Follow-up on the second shot with a 226 takes way longer than it would with a Glock or P7.

In contrast to the 226, let's take the P7 as an example. I think the P7 is the one of the best, if not the best, pistols for hammers and controlled pairs. The P7 has only one trigger action: SA. The take-up is very short and the release is very smooth. There is minimal overtravel after the release. The shooter need learn only one trigger action. There is no need to adapt to different trigger actions during a hammer or controlled pair.

The P7 also has a very low bore axis. The bore axis is considerably lower than the bore axis on the 226, and I believe the P7 has the lowest bore axis of any service pistol. The recoil of the shot is driven almost straight back against the shooter's hand instead of levering the pistol upward.

The P7's method of operation also differs from that of the 226 and this makes a huge difference in how easily and quickly subsequent shots can be delivered. The 226 is a modified Browning short recoil design, so the barrel must tilt downward to unlock the action. This necessitates a high bore line. The recoil operation also requires a heavier slide. The P7, in contrast, is a retarded blowback operation. The barrel is fixed and sits very low on the receiver. The P7's slide is also considerably lighter than the slide on the recoil-operation weapons. This lighter slide necessarily jostles the weapon less as the slide reciprocates to and fro during cycling. The P7 also uses gas pressure to keep the breech closed, which makes for very smooth operation and very low felt recoil. The 226 has none of these features. These features are important and make a significant difference in how easily the pistol can be shot quickly.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JSQ
now in one sense it's not a true german sig and all that. not made by j.p. sauer and whatnot, but it's a great pistol nonetheless.


Huh? I think you're confusing SIG and J.P. Sauer & Sohn. The 226 was designed by SIG, the Swiss arms maker. But SIG does not export military and police weapons because of strict Swiss laws regarding such, so SIG teamed up with J.P. Sauer & Sohn. Sauer manufactures the 226 under license in Germany and then exports same worldwide. That's why the 226 is called a "SIG-Sauer" and not a SIG.

Note that weapons like the 210 are not SIG-Sauers. Nor is the StG57. Both of these weapons are plain "SIG's" and not "SIG-Sauers", as they are manufactured by SIG in Switzerland.


Quote:

Originally Posted by JSQ
i still like the beretta 92. It's not reliable at all, but i dig the fixed bbl and i shoot it better than anything else.


Are we talking about the same 92? I have always found the 92 to be very reliable. The 92 has numerous shortcomings but reliability isn't one of them.

And the 92 doesn't have a fixed barrel. The 92 utilizes short recoil operation. The barrel does not tilt as it does on Browning short recoil operation, but the barrel does move front to back. When a round is discharged and the slide starts to move backward from the recoil impulse, the barrel and slide remain locked together and the barrel actually moves backward for a short distance with the slide. Then, the locking block that Beretta copied from the P38 tilts downward and the barrel ceases rearward movement while the slide continues backward. The barrel isn't fixed at all.

traveltoad March 23rd, 2005 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnlee
The P7 also uses gas pressure to keep the breech closed, which makes for very smooth operation and very low felt recoil.


Is that why the P7 gets so hot?

johnlee March 23rd, 2005 01:26 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Yeah, the P7's gas system really heats up the pistol. The pistol is too hot to hold after several magazines.


Just forward of the case mouth, you can see a gas bleed tube that runs from the barrel to the gas tube under the chamber. As soon as the bullet passes this port as it's driven down the barrel, gas pressure fills the gas tube and helps to keep the breech shut. This gas is obviously very hot and heats up the pistol's frame. The frame can get hot enough that the shooter has to grip down on the handle and the middle finger of the firing hand has to be kept away from the receiver and the trigger guard. This is contrary to the way the pistol should be held, as the firing hand should be scrunched up as far as possible into the pistol to lower the bore axis and minimize muzzle flip.

The heat problem is a disadvantage on the range but not in real life, as it takes several magazines to heat up the pistol. I think a much bigger disadvantage of the P7 is its 9mm chambering. I wish HK made a usable P7 in .40 or 10mm or .45. A 1911-sized P7 chambered in .45 ACP would be a very sweet pistol, perhaps the ultimate service pistol. I would bet even Jeff Cooper would convert to that pistol if it existed.

Another disadvantage of the P7 is that it's a very "dirty" pistol to shoot. The chamber is fluted and this blows a lot of carbon fouling back onto the breech face. This doesn't affect reliability at all. In fact, it enhances reliability. But it takes longer to clean a P7 than it does a modern short-recoil pistol like a Glock. No real biggie though.

traveltoad March 23rd, 2005 01:36 PM

Maybe I'll get the shotgun before I get the 45...

johnlee March 23rd, 2005 01:53 PM

Do I see a Super 90 in your future?

traveltoad March 23rd, 2005 02:19 PM

You mean one of these???

johnlee March 23rd, 2005 02:34 PM

Oh God! My eyes! What a pimp gun.

No, not one of those. I was thinking something more like this:

http://www.benelliusa.com/firearms/cordoba.tpl

I'm digging that new receiver design. It's sort of like the receiver design on the Super Black Eagle, but shorter in legnth and more streamlined in profile. It blows away the receiver design on my Super 90's.

I prefer wood stocks and the styling on that Cordoba is a little racy, but the stock design is functionally sound. If that shotgun takes extension magazines it would be very sweet.


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