Expedition Exchange Bulletin Boards  

Go Back   Expedition Exchange Bulletin Boards > Trips / Events / Reports
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old March 26th, 2007, 10:06 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
sweet pic.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old March 26th, 2007, 11:49 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Here are some pics from yesterday.

I apologize in advance if the pics seem monotonous. Triple B's shooting booths look like this:




The cages block the side shots, so the shooting pics are almost all from the rear.

Here's why Jack described David's shooting style as "tactical":




David shoots clays with the gun pre-mounted and positioned at what Gunsite calls "low ready". After David shoots, he automatically returns the weapon to low ready.

I really like the way David shoots. I normally shoot clays with the gun at high ready, but I will often pre-mount the gun and call for the target with the weapon at low ready, just to practice my low ready position. I wish I could practice my indoor ready as well, but the shooting booths don't permit this.

David even had the tactical pants:




Here are the four guns we shot yesterday:




With the side-by-side, over/under, pump repeater, and self-loading repeater represented, this is a good variety of different shotgun types. From left to right are Tom's Ugartechea 20, Jack's Winchester Model 12, my Krieghoff K-20, and my Benelli Super 90 (which David shot).

Here's a close-up of the K-20's receiver:




I really like the K-20. I was noticeably less tired yesterday after shooting the K-20 than I am normally after shooting the K-80. My K-20's buttstock also fits me slightly better than my K-80's buttstock does.

My K-20 is fucked up though. There's something wrong with the lower barrel's ejector or cocking ram. The weapon is very difficult to break open about half the time. I'll have to take a close look at the K-20's internals when I get a chance. If I can't do the repair myself, I'll send it to PSA for repair.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old March 26th, 2007, 12:01 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Here's Jack with his Model 12:




Jack's mount has evolved slightly. Here it is yesterday:




Here it was before:




I like his new high ready better. This ready position, with the butt indexed against the side and the weapon vertically oriented, offers a much more consistent gun mount. Just bring the gun up and bang. There's no need to twist the weapon during the mounting phase. And less vision is blocked by the barrels with the muzzle lower. I really like the eyes-muzzle-target position of the muzzles in the first pic.

Tom and David look on:


Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old March 26th, 2007, 02:42 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Tom tags some targets with his 20:




Tom pulls for David:




OJ gloves:




David also got in some field gun love with Tom's 20:




After getting accustomed to the Super 90, the Ugartechea with its automatic safety, double triggers, and manual extraction must have seemed odd:




And bang:


Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old March 26th, 2007, 02:51 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Here I am on the same station with the K-20, gun in high ready and ready to call for the target:




And bang:




Tom, you can see in these pics what I mean by minimal angle changes between the high ready and mounted shots. There's very little angle change in the K-20 from high ready to shot. There's always going to be some angle change, but this is very different from the drastic vertical-to-horizontal angles change seen on many gun mounts.

On high ready, I keep the weapon vertically oriented so that I don't have to twist it when it when I mount it. The muzzle is situated in eyes-muzzle-target fashion as in this pic:




I also try to move my head as little as possible during the mount as well. That is, I bring the gun up to the face rather than shouldering the gun and then lowering my head onto the gun:


Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old March 26th, 2007, 02:53 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Station 7 at Triple B is called "Dove" and is supposed to simulate dove flights:




The shooting box for Dove has rocks instead of a flat standing surface:




Jack gets in some footwork:


Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old March 26th, 2007, 03:05 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
David, Jack and I were hesitant to give you advice on the range yesterday because we didn't want to overload you with information. Rather, we just wanted you to have a good time at the range. But now that the range day is over, I thought I would throw out some pointers for next time.

If you can, get the butt into the pocket of your shoulder, inboard of your shoulder joint where it's nice and soft.

Check out:




Granted, that's you during before the cheek weld, but because you were shooting high gun the butt is already located where it would be when you took the shot.

When the weapon recoils into the shoulder muscle, it hurts. Get the butt inboard of that shoulder muscle like this:




Not only is the gun going to hurt you with the butt where it is located now, the gun is far away from your face and you have to tilt your head over the gun:




With the butt properly in your shoulder pocket, the weapon is much closer to your face and you can keep your head more erect:




I also recommend taking a slightly more aggressive stance with your torso more forward. Check out:




Granted, that's a high target. But with your torso back like that you are going to get pushed around more than you would if your torso was more forward. Here I am on the same station:




But these are just little things you'll pick up as you shoot more. I must say that I was stunned how many hits you got and how good your gunhandling was. Your Death Machine title stands.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old March 26th, 2007, 03:07 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Thank you guys for a fun day at the range and for a great dinner at Gumi.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old March 26th, 2007, 06:31 PM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
KC2PFB
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 571
Thanks for the pics and the tips.

My shoulder is sore, it was from when I used your gun and it slipped off my shoulder, after then every shot hurt even if the butt was placed correctly. I definitely got tired at the end which caused me to be lazy with my form.

Once again, I had a great time... thanks guys!
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old March 26th, 2007, 07:37 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150


"What the hell is wrong with this gun?"

I played with the K-20 after UPS came by today, and for the life of me I can't get it to duplicate the fault it showed yesterday. Cocking and ejection of both barrels is perfect when performed dry.

Hoping that the problem lay in dirty cocking ram channels, I removed the stock and doused the action with PB Blaster. Then I blew the gun "dry" with shop air. Lots of black stuff came out, but it didn't look like enough gunk to stiffen up the gun. Then I gave the internals a light coat of Militec and reassembled everything. The weapon is a little smoother now than it was before, but I don't think it was the cocking rams being stuck in their channels.

As far as I can tell, the internals are in perfect operating condition.

I tried to hit Sharpshooter tonight to test-fire the K-20 but Sharpshooter is closed today. So I'll try to go tomorrow.

This is pissing me off.
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old March 26th, 2007, 08:46 PM
dchapman dchapman is online now
Daniel Chapman
KJ4BXR
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,121
John,

I have an old (mid 60's maybe) Winchester single shot 12ga. If I shoot it a lot, the shells do not eject correctly, if at all. If I wipe it clean with a touch of solvent, all is well for another ten or so shots. My guess is the residue left over from the gun powder is sticky.
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old March 27th, 2007, 12:00 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Tom, you can see in these pics what I mean by minimal angle changes between the high ready and mounted shots. There's very little angle change in the K-20 from high ready to shot. There's always going to be some angle change, but this is very different from the drastic vertical-to-horizontal angles change seen on many gun mounts.

I'll certainly give this an honest try at home and see how it goes. As Jack was saying, I fear it might not be practical/safe in the field and since I don't want to develop any range habits that could carry over it kind of freaks me out. High ready does seem very comfortable. Perhaps the true mark of excellence is being so experienced that I can shoot clays, or even tactical, without it affecting my upland habits.

One question I do have for you guys: how well do I get my face up against the stock? Usually I notice some discomfort in the right place after I shoot, but I might just be getting slapped by recoil.

Man, after I switched to the Zen mentality, I was amazed at my performance albeit in only one round; I just can't think too much about clays. This makes no sense to me.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old March 27th, 2007, 12:16 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
This is pissing me off.

If you think it might be fouling or excessive grease, maybe try one of those aerosol gun scrubber cans. I don't care a great deal for the stuff for regular cleaning but the combination of the directed spray and the degreaser might work.

Is it possible the oil used was too thick for the ejector? Perhaps just the smallest drop of something super light like RemOil.

Finally, do you think it might be something similar to when I first shot my 20 and I wasn't opening the gun firmly enough? This might perhaps explain why the problem has since disappeared. Do ejectors work like that?
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old March 27th, 2007, 12:18 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
lol, there is some sweet Benchmade love in those pics.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old March 27th, 2007, 09:10 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Yeah, Benchmade love everywhere.

On the high ready affecting your field shooting, remember that high ready is not a universal position. Rather, it's a preface to shooting. If you're strolling around, it's tiring to keep the weapon at high ready at all times. High ready isn't nearly as tiring as low ready, but it can be tiring if held for long periods.

When you anticipate releasing a shot, reflexively move the weapon to high ready or low ready or whatever ready. This should just happen, without thought. Keeping the weapon at port arms when you're anticipating a shot weird to me. This is true for any kind of shooting, whether combat, field, or clays.

Take a look at this shot:




That's you during the mount, the moment before your face touches the comb. Look at the angle of your back and how you're actually leaning backward. I think you're taking a lot more felt recoil and getting tossed around than you would be if you leaned forward during the shot like Jack:




I notice that you commonly stand erect at port arms, call for the target, and then move your left foot back during the mount. I think this is one of the worst things you can do for your shooting. You should either keep your feet stationary (with weight on weak foot/leg) or step your right foot forward. (Tom is left-handed.) Moving your strong-side foot backward is sort of like hitting a golf ball with your weight on the wrong foot, and it causes all sorts of errors.

The next time you shoot a crosser, note your balance after taking the shot. Were you off balance at the end of your swing? If your weight were on your weak-side foot/leg, you would swing much more freely and wouldn't be off balance. And because your swing was more free, you wouldn't have the tendency to fall off line and miss the target high or low (usually high).
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old March 27th, 2007, 10:35 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchapman
John,

I have an old (mid 60's maybe) Winchester single shot 12ga. If I shoot it a lot, the shells do not eject correctly, if at all. If I wipe it clean with a touch of solvent, all is well for another ten or so shots. My guess is the residue left over from the gun powder is sticky.


No doubt.

The parallels between your beater single shot possum gun and John's Krieghoff are near endless.
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old March 27th, 2007, 12:31 PM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
Thanks John, I appreciate the feedback. A lot of this for me has become reflex (albeit poor)- I don't usually notice anything but my mount and trigger selection. I do recall, however, doing some weird things with my feet out there. I don't remember which station it was, maybe Teal, but I remember at one point feeling like I almost took a hop or a lunge forward. But just walking through the motions in my mind right now, I tend to want to take a step with my left foot and pivot to the left slightly. lol, I have a lot to think about and work on, makes me want to go back out this weekend
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old March 27th, 2007, 05:31 PM
dannydisco dannydisco is offline
Daniel Long
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
This is pissing me off.

I'm going to assume that you attempted ejections of unfired rounds (unsafe), "snap caps", or empty casings. If the ejection mechanisms all worked fine with whatever you tried in the shop then could it be something with your round/chamber mating surface?

If your Krieghoff has a rough finish in the chambers the added friction could cause a round to stick. This wouldn't be as apparent in an unfired round or a snapcap as the round has not expanded due to the firing of the round. Thus your shotgun would function well on "dry runs" but might mis-eject on fired casings.

Was the fault only with one brand/type/box of cartridges? A box/case of cartridges with slightly oversized casings might also be a culprit.

Of course I am likely wrong on either count. In the picture posted in the aforementioned post it appears as though both extractors have gone through their full range of motion which would eliminate a mechanical failure.

Hope it all works out,

Dan
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old March 27th, 2007, 09:10 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Oh shit! I like your rough chamber theory.

My K-20 has rusty chambers. The previous owner didn't use oil-mop snap caps or a Bore Snake after shooting and the chambers are rusty. The loaded rounds don't drop into the chambers from gravity alone. I have to push them in. Lightly, but I still have to push them in.

The chamber corrosion is very light and I never paid attention to it because it's the light type of corrosion that will likely brush out with PB Blaster and a stiff bronze chamber brush.

Sticky hulls would certainly explain why the gun was hard to open but works fine dry.

Thanks for the idea. I'll scrub out the chambers.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old June 13th, 2007, 01:34 PM
dchapman dchapman is online now
Daniel Chapman
KJ4BXR
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,121
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old June 22nd, 2007, 07:28 PM
dchapman dchapman is online now
Daniel Chapman
KJ4BXR
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,121
I'm in love!

Meet Callie. A little young at 21, but her dad and I are about to become good friends!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Callie1.jpg (59.5 KB, 31 views)
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gorman Sunday the 13th Hollywood LR3 Trips / Events / Reports 0 July 12th, 2008 10:03 PM
Record of SCLR Alcohol Thread johnlee General 101 July 7th, 2008 11:42 AM
Land Rovers and Shotguns blued2 General 115 February 4th, 2008 03:14 PM
Shotgunning this Sunday part deux sheki Trips / Events / Reports 22 September 12th, 2007 01:35 PM
Clays Shoot Next Sunday (23JUL06) JSQ General 16 July 24th, 2006 02:11 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 07:39 AM.




Copyright 2001-2012 Expedition Exchange Incorporated. All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.