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  #1  
Old April 21st, 2005, 12:05 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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EEEEEEEK!!!

You'll be the death of me yet John.



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  #2  
Old April 21st, 2005, 01:32 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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LOL.
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  #3  
Old April 21st, 2005, 11:16 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Westley Richards, William Evans, B&P, Kent, H&H ....

the list goes on.
and you've got Estate.
I mean I know it's just Galco, but it's still nice enough for a decent shell.
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  #4  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 07:39 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Here we go again...
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  #5  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 09:23 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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When I bought those boxes, I went to Turner's and bought what I thought would be the most commonly used shotshells for that carrier. That way, the customer could look at that pic and say to himself, "oh, I use those shotshells and therefore that Four Box Shell Carrier will hold my shells."

I'm curious though. These Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, etc. shotshells that you like so much--is there anything about them other than name that you like about them? Do their paper hulls work any better than the plastic hulls that Federal, Remington, and Winchester use? Do their felt wads or plastic wads cushion and protect the shot charge any better than the plastic wads that Federal, Remington, and Winchester use? Does the shot they use feature greater sphericity or copper plating or buffering to enhance patterning quality? Does their shot feature heavy-metal or non-toxic construction like tungsten or Bismuth or Hevi-Shot or whatever? Do their primers feature non-toxic fulminates? Do their powder mixtures produce less felt recoil for any given velocity or burn more cleanly?

Or is it just the name game that you're after?
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  #6  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 03:07 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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B&P outpatterns.
period.
all sorts of high tech mumbo jumbo going on there.
the proof of the pudding is in the kitchen.

but on another note,
the feel and yes, just the tactile experience, of paper hulls is incomparable. they just feel perfect.
of course, I need nicer shotguns to make the experience complete. I figure AYA no2 is sort of the minimum for paper wads

reaching into a nice shell bag or belt and pulling out a pair of paper hull 2" shells and letting them slide into two barrels is perfection. like down shifting from 4th to 3rd in a 550 spyder while wearing Tods driving shoes.

hopefully the shells are purple.
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  #7  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 03:18 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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LOL, just as I had thought. There's nothing demonstrably superior about those shotshells. It's just the name that you're into.

Sorry for teching you to death.
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  #8  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 04:29 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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B&P my good man.
it will consistently pattern better and maintain shot uniformity.

"Baschieri & Pellagri, who is probably best known to bird shooters for their 16 and 28 loads, markets a 12 and 20 gauge shotshell ammunition line which features the Gordon System of ignition, that has helped B&P win gold medals in competitive shooting. This probably requires a word of an explanation because it epitomizes the kind of creative thinking that contributes to the efficiency of shotshell design and usage today. You can learn more at: www.bandpusa.com.

The Gordon System is a different way to make shotshells. The inner base of the hull is a progressive dampening spring that operates when the shell is fired. This has an immediate benefit: it works along with a collapsing base wad to absorb recoil by reducing operating pressures. It's like having a shock absorber in front and a recoil spring in the rear. The key benefit here is that you can operate at lower pressures -- which translates into less shot deformation -- which means better patterns and less recoil -- hence less muzzle jump, so you don't have to look all over the sky to take a pair. It means you can ratchet up the shot speeds to buy an extra five or ten yards of range &endash; say out to 30 or 35 yards when you have open chokes in the gun &endash; without boosting operating pressures or felt recoil."

I think when we go out for clays we should at least pattern some different shells for fun.

I think that WE, WR and H&H are pretty boutique, but I'm okay with that.
B&P however makes me believe.
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  #9  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 04:35 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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ooh and I like this B&P factoid, even though I'm not really a clay guy:

"6 golds, 2 silvers, and 1 bronze at the Olympics, 7 World Cups, 64 World Championships, 65 European Championships, and 239 Italian Championships"
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  #10  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 05:48 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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LOL-

I know you stated you hate the word "elitist" but you're just asking for it Jack...

Why not do your own blind test with your beloved B&P versus a box of PMC, Sellier-Bellot or Wolf? Might be enlightening.

For hunting, I don't think the game would know the difference.
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  #11  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 06:00 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I took a look at that Gordon System and it's intriguing. I'd love to cut open a hull and see what the shot cup and buffered base look like. From looking at the buffered base, it looks to me to add very little given that the shot cup's range of buffering movement is several times larger than the base, but a buffered base could hardly hurt.

The B&P site doesn't list velocity specs for its various loads, so we'd have a hard time making good conclusions from comparing the felt recoil and pattern quality of the B&P loads and American-made competition loads like Federal Gold Medal Target, Winchester AA, and Remington Light Premier. But it would definitely be fun to pattern the B&P against Gold Metal Target, AA, etc. and see how they perform on the patterning board using various shotguns.

Not that it really matters but the "6 golds, 2 silvers, and 1 bronze at the Olympics" strikes me as not much to brag about. If we look at Federal and Winchester alone, for example, Kim Rhode has I believe two gold medals and a bronze medal by herself. That's one shooter. I'm sure there are numerous others who shoot Federal Gold Medal and AA in world-class competition, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Federal and Winchester had dozens upon dozens of Olympic gold medals.

Speaking of shooting, one of the partners at my old firm emailed me today and wants to hit Oak Tree shotgun range around mid-May. This place is located in the Newhall area just south of Magic Mountain and has trap, skeet, and sporting clays, as well as a kick-ass pistol range with metallic targets galore. I doubt there's a patterning board there, but I say we hit the range. It's a sweet place.
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  #12  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 07:01 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Speaking of shooting, one of the partners at my old firm emailed me today and wants to hit Oak Tree shotgun range around mid-May. This place is located in the Newhall area just south of Magic Mountain and has trap, skeet, and sporting clays, as well as a kick-ass pistol range with metallic targets galore. I doubt there's a patterning board there, but I say we hit the range. It's a sweet place.

If you are willing to school a newbie... I'd love to go.
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  #13  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 07:47 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greghirst
LOL-

I know you stated you hate the word "elitist" but you're just asking for it Jack...


Of course, Greg in typical Politico fashion, you have managed to skew my point a bit. I knew I could count on you. What I was telling you before is that I hate how the word "elite" has somehow become derogatory. I find it incomprehensible how both ends of the political spectrum apply the word elite in a manner which is intended to cast a negative light. Be it, the volvo-driving-latte-sipping-new york times-reading liberal elite or the waspy-ivy league-old boy-corrupt-wealthy-conservative elite. To me elite is simply the best. To be elitist is to believe wholly in the best. What the fuck is wrong with that? Elitism is striving for and to be the best. I cannot grasp how both political arms of the American system while grappling for dominance find they can slander their opponent by effectively calling them superior? In addition I disregard as fallible any sort of argument which suggests that "elite" describes attitude alone. All of the examples and criteria which seem to personify "elite" to one group or the other encompass a wide range of values, emotion, history and style.

Of course I'm "elitist".
And if I'm not already, one day I hope to be "elite".
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  #14  
Old April 22nd, 2005, 07:56 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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[quote=johnlee]
The B&P site doesn't list velocity specs for its various loadsQUOTE]

check out:

http://www.bandpusa.com/products3.as...y2=TRADITIONAL LINE&Category3=AL (ANIGRINA)&cat_id=1&imagelink=http://bandpusacom.siteprotect.net/Product%20Images/AL.jpg

on the bandpusa site

and also tables like this:

http://www.baschieri-pellagri.com/uk...adcac/1al.html

can be found here:

http://www.baschieri-pellagri.com/uk/31.html

and thereabouts.
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  #15  
Old April 23rd, 2005, 09:29 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Yeah, Aaron, definitely come along. You'll love it.

http://www.baschieri-pellagri.com/uk...adcac/1al.html

That's a very workable load for our comparison. The shot charge is listed at 494 grains, which is the same as the American 1 1/8 oz. loads. The velocity is listed as 404 m/s, which is basically the same as the 1300 f/s velocity found on many American loads. Get some of this load in No. 8 and we're set.

The AA sporting clays load pictured above has the same specs, so it's very suitable for comparison.

The Federal T116 Gold Medal Target load pictured above won't really work for our comparison though, because its velocity is 1200 f/s. Federal does make a SC179 load for sporting clays:

http://www.federalcartridge.com/ammo...el=&bulletwgt=

The problem with the SC179 load is that it's new and I've never seen it in the stores. I'll take a look though.

The other Federal "Top Gun" cheapo load pictured above won't work either, as its velocity is 1200 f/s.

Incidentally, Federal still makes its paper-hulled target load if that's what floats your boat:

http://www.federalcartridge.com/ammo...el=&bulletwgt=

The Remington load pictured above is suitable at 1250 f/s, but it's No. 7 1/2 shot. Not that it makes a meaningful difference, but I would like to eliminate as many variables as possible. Remington has a STS12NSC load that has ballistics suitable for our test:

http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotshell/premiersts.htm

So if you get some B&P in that load and if I get some Federal SC179 and Remington STS12NSC, we would be able to compare four different premium target loads and check patterning quality. Frankly, I think the differences in pattern quality (not pattern tightness) among the four rounds will be so small as to be meaningless. But one never knows....
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  #16  
Old April 23rd, 2005, 11:23 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
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Here's Oak Tree's site:

http://www.oaktreegunclub.com/
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  #17  
Old April 23rd, 2005, 08:41 PM
mcfatty mcfatty is offline
Keith McFatridge
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ladera Ranch, CA
Posts: 23
Well, I've been biting my tongue on this one, but here's what good old Federal and Winchester shot can do for you, granted you are a decent shot....trust me, that's what's most important...Enjoy!!!!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0038a.jpg (111.9 KB, 386 views)
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  #18  
Old April 23rd, 2005, 08:53 PM
mcfatty mcfatty is offline
Keith McFatridge
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ladera Ranch, CA
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And for you upland bird hunters...................
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 01-15-05-Red Mountain 19 Chukar-Tailgate.JPG (79.7 KB, 390 views)
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  #19  
Old April 23rd, 2005, 11:04 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Of course, Greg in typical Politico fashion, you have managed to skew my point a bit. I knew I could count on you. What I was telling you before is that I hate how the word "elite" has somehow become derogatory. I find it incomprehensible how both ends of the political spectrum apply the word elite in a manner which is intended to cast a negative light. Be it, the volvo-driving-latte-sipping-new york times-reading liberal elite or the waspy-ivy league-old boy-corrupt-wealthy-conservative elite. To me elite is simply the best. To be elitist is to believe wholly in the best. What the fuck is wrong with that? Elitism is striving for and to be the best. I cannot grasp how both political arms of the American system while grappling for dominance find they can slander their opponent by effectively calling them superior? In addition I disregard as fallible any sort of argument which suggests that "elite" describes attitude alone. All of the examples and criteria which seem to personify "elite" to one group or the other encompass a wide range of values, emotion, history and style.

Of course I'm "elitist".
And if I'm not already, one day I hope to be "elite".

LOL-Jack, everything that's good, when pressed to the extreme, can become bad. I would also hope to someday be an "elite" in a chosen field of endeavor.

I know that you know that words have different meanings and inferences. I don't have to post up references to this or that dictionary for you because you KNOW the difference between the one meaning of "elite" (i.e. being the best at what one does) and my intended meaning of the word "elitist" (i.e. the belief that those of percieved superior breeding, intellect, or financial resources SHOULD control and rule society). You strike me as more egalitarian than that.

Perhaps "snobbery" is a better or more appropriate word choice?

Anyway, back to the subject. I would be very interested to find that the "boutique" shotshells are better than the premium shells available from Fed/Rem/Win. In fact, I'd be interested in seeing how the el cheapo shotshells compare as well.

BTW-Nice shooting Keith!
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  #20  
Old April 24th, 2005, 02:49 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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And for you upland bird hunters...................

Keith you use 5.56 to shoot chukar?!
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  #21  
Old April 24th, 2005, 06:33 AM
KVT
 
Posts: n/a
Cool

Yeah , this should be good.... I have a few boxes of the old paper shot shells here that fit the Parkers... They sit on a shelf where they belong....

I gotta get in a field full of Birds with some of you boys with my Junk...
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  #22  
Old April 24th, 2005, 10:03 AM
mcfatty mcfatty is offline
Keith McFatridge
 
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Location: Ladera Ranch, CA
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Nice shell holder, damn cheap too.
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  #23  
Old April 24th, 2005, 07:45 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Keith,

Realize full well that I'm doing everything possible to identify your secret covert from that one picture.

Madeline has never gone out for chukar.
We saw some in Death Valley and I let her out of the truck to flush one.
What thrilling birds.
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  #24  
Old April 24th, 2005, 09:39 PM
mcfatty mcfatty is offline
Keith McFatridge
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ladera Ranch, CA
Posts: 23
Let's talk about it when the season gets closer. California and Arizona hold some of the best quail and chukar hunting, not to mention some great waterfowling as well. Hint....think desert.........your on the right track, but it's mighty big out there!!
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  #25  
Old April 24th, 2005, 09:57 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Slightly off subject-

Finished an interesting book today: "Shotguns and Shooting" by Michael McIntosh. Enjoyable and easy reading and I learned a thing or two. I've been meaning to read it for awhile and finally got around to it.

In addition to basics, it rounded out some history for me. Good read if you haven't already.
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