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  #10826  
Old May 20th, 2015, 04:12 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
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At some point there will always be a division between owning something just to have and to hold and using it. They're both valid enterprises and sometimes they overlap, but when they don't people tend to disagree.

When I look at the Jeep Africa I think, "Man I would love to take that on a trip."
I don't necessarily think, "Man, I would love to Ballistol that car in my garage and take pictures of it.

That's not to say that the Africa is ugly. I think it's pretty good looking and with a few small tweaks it would be stylin. But the main appeal is the functionality. Knowing that it works well doesn't mean I'm kidding myself about it. It also doesn't mean it's some disposable beater. If I had the Jeep I would still wash it and take care of it, but the joy would probably lie largely in using it, not in showing it off.

And not everything is a substitute for something else. Take my Land Cruiser for instance:


Some might say that it's just a wannabe Land Rover 110. You could tell me how Land Cruiser people are really all filled with envy when they see Land Rovers. You could tell me how they justify the Toyota by talking about how functional and reliable they are but deep down there is no love. They dream of this:



But I don't feel that envy and I still LOVE the Land Cruiser. I love it every bit as much as the 110 even though I don't have nearly the blood, sweat and tears investment. To me both those trucks are magic.

Now I'm not saying the Africa is the equal of a 110 or 70 series LC. But I can like the Jeep without lying to myself.
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  #10827  
Old May 20th, 2015, 05:01 PM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
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Location: Mercer Island, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
I think you guys are crazy for liking that Africa Edishun, but of course you will like what you will. I'm sure you guys think I'm crazy for digging some of the stuff that I dig.

I do hope though that the new Defender reaches our shores in 2018 and it's awesome and that causes you guys to rid yourselves this Jeep contamination. Part of me thinks you guys like that Jeep because it's pretty much the only thing that is available to us right now.

As for the Land Rover being a copy of the Jeep, I'm not sure that's an accurate statement. It's definitely true that the Jeep came first. However, I think it's also true that the Land Rover transcended the Jeep. The 8mm Lebel rifle predated the 1898 Mauser, but somehow the Mauser became the iconic bolt-action rifle. I think the Land Rover is no more a "copy" of the Jeep than the Mauser is a "copy" of the Lebel Rifle.




Hope is for suckers. Whatever Defender makes it to the US is going to be a turd. We all know it.
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  #10828  
Old May 20th, 2015, 11:11 PM
chris snell chris snell is offline
Christopher Snell
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tacoma
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I think you're overestimating the functionality of that Jeep. Yes, it may have a diesel under the hood but it's still Chrysler. It still has Detroit electronics.

There's just no getting around the Jeep image, either. I will always associate them with college kids running huge tires and Moab meatheads and their trail stickers. It's a little silly to buy based on image but we all do it, whether it's the mujahideen racing across the desert in the Hilux or the Her Majesty driving a Defender, or Umfufu sitting in the driver's seat with her titties hanging out. The Classless thread is 40+ pages of Land Rover imagery and I have no doubt that Toyota historians could offer up the same. What can Jeep offer?

I would sooner rebuild a D1 on a galvanized frame and fresh driveline before I ditched the brand for a four-door Jeep. It's not logic, it's love.
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  #10829  
Old May 21st, 2015, 05:17 AM
mjv mjv is offline
marcus vitale
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Quote:

Hope is for suckers. Whatever Defender makes it to the US is going to be a turd. We all know it.

Par for the course, John has pointed out two very valid points.

1. If we could hot tub time machine it to 1993 or 1997, none of us would give a shit about that jeep. We would all be down at the Land Rover dealership buying Defenders for under $30k.

2. Regarding Hope. As a young child my uncle had me stretch out my arms and turn my hands palms up, then he said 'put hope in one hand and shit in the other and tell me which gets full first.'

We all know the new defender is going to be such a piece of shit, that we are grasping for straws and looking at the jeep as a land rover alternative? Myself included.

Land Rover's current offerings are so fucking terrible that a jeep looks good? Mind blowing, pathetic, but reality.

I took one look at that Africa and my fist thought was to forward the image and info to a few clients. I don't like the stickers or the gratuitous jerry can. However, I can see that truck making up what the current model jeep lacks. And I can see it as being a useful viable alternative to what Land Rover is going to offer us. It will never have soul, but you can't argue that it won't perform.

I liken this entire situation, and imagine that at the end of the horse drawn carriage era, automobiles started replacing horses. And if there was an EE bulletin board there might have been a very similar thread...
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  #10830  
Old May 21st, 2015, 06:06 AM
mjv mjv is offline
marcus vitale
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I think one of the reasons that Jack and I see the potential of the Jeep Africa is due to the fact that both of us have a lot of seat time in other than land rover vehicles, especially a Jeep that we used for many of our trips last season. Are we happiest when we are bouncing around Mexico and hunting out of a Defender or Range Rover? Absolutely. But we both know this is not the norm, nor is it always the case. For this reason, I think we have a different perspective regarding the Jeep. I can't speak for Jack, but I personally feel the Africa model addresses many of the short comings of the current non Land Rover alternatives.

Its no defender, true. Besides it lack of soul and lack of interior space, the truck did pass the grade.








It sure beats the truck Jack gets saddled driving on some of our trips.



Its not this:



Not many trucks are, and thats okay. It doesn't have to be. But just because it doesn't fit the definition of our 'dream car' doesn't mean that its a piece of shit and sucks entirely.
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  #10831  
Old May 21st, 2015, 06:48 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
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Location: Mercer Island, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell
I think you're overestimating the functionality of that Jeep. Yes, it may have a diesel under the hood but it's still Chrysler. It still has Detroit electronics.

There's just no getting around the Jeep image, either. I will always associate them with college kids running huge tires and Moab meatheads and their trail stickers. It's a little silly to buy based on image but we all do it, whether it's the mujahideen racing across the desert in the Hilux or the Her Majesty driving a Defender, or Umfufu sitting in the driver's seat with her titties hanging out. The Classless thread is 40+ pages of Land Rover imagery and I have no doubt that Toyota historians could offer up the same. What can Jeep offer?

I would sooner rebuild a D1 on a galvanized frame and fresh driveline before I ditched the brand for a four-door Jeep. It's not logic, it's love.

I'll bite. Explain the functionality of a 110 that sits at home while its owner rides shotgun in a Disco on 2 trips?

I've rented 4 door Jeeps every time I've taken a trip to Hawaii in the last 5 or 6 years. I have about 2 months seat time in them. These rental trucks have been beat to death, yet, they still got me from point A to point B. I don't love them, but they are decent vehicles.

Building a Disco on a galvy frame? You can't be serious.

Don't get me wrong, a 300tdi 110 is a wonderful vehicle and I'd love to have one. I'm just not willing to jump through all of the hoops to get one. The appeal of the Jeep is that it's easy. You pick it up from the dealer and you take it out.
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  #10832  
Old May 21st, 2015, 07:57 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell
I think you're overestimating the functionality of that Jeep. Yes, it may have a diesel under the hood but it's still Chrysler. It still has Detroit electronics.

Since when do we, as Land Rover owners, get to talk shit about any other manufacturers electronics?

I'm like Mike. I haven't ever owned a Jeep but I have a fair amount of seat time in JKs. A lot of those trucks had been treated very poorly before I used them and none of them ever stranded me. Putting them ahead of Land Rovers in reliability isn't setting the bar very high but it still gives them an edge.

I would expect the Jeep Africa to be very similar in durability to the J8. I'm told it has an updated version of the FIAT produced 2.8 turbodiesel and it has even more power and better economy.


I know for a fact that truck is extremely functional.
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  #10833  
Old May 21st, 2015, 08:58 AM
blue blue is offline
Bill Gill, aka chump hater
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 860
My last 4X4 vehicle before I succumbed to Land Rover ownership was a leased 1996 Cherokee Sport with about every option I could put on it, including limited slip rear diff and the "Up Country" suspension package. Had to wait over 3 months for it to be made and then flew back to Ohio from my new AZ home and drove it out here. It was a fun truck, good off-road, no real failures other than a grinding rear diff replaced under warranty.

Then in 1998 I saw that white 1996 Land Rover Discovery lease return with only 30,000 miles and an ARB rear locker sitting on the local dealer's lot. I had 4 months left on my Jeep lease but I bought the Disco. The poor Jeep sat alone, unloved, in the far corner of my apartment parking lot for 4 months as I unbolted the bull bar, Hellas, roof rack and sold them off. I told myself that I should feel badly for just parking it....but I didn't.
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  #10834  
Old May 21st, 2015, 09:23 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell
The Classless thread is 40+ pages of Land Rover imagery and I have no doubt that Toyota historians could offer up the same.

I encourage such a thread. Let's see it. Start a Toyota thread and show me the "love" that Toyota owners always allude to but never produce.

If you want, you can include pics of the awesomeness of mountain biking, that pure 90's cycling, the greatness of the FAL, the sweet Shimano set-ups, The Jeep Thing, the originality of the TAG-Heuer, and so on.

Change my mind on this stuff. I've always thought this stuff was so second-choice, but change my mind on it. If this stuff is so great, let's see it.
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  #10835  
Old May 21st, 2015, 09:38 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
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I started such a thread:

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/fo...ead.php?t=1481

It may be the first new thread on the EE board in a decade.

Post up your love.
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  #10836  
Old May 21st, 2015, 09:55 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by blue
My last 4X4 vehicle before I succumbed to Land Rover ownership was a leased 1996 Cherokee Sport with about every option I could put on it, including limited slip rear diff and the "Up Country" suspension package. Had to wait over 3 months for it to be made and then flew back to Ohio from my new AZ home and drove it out here. It was a fun truck, good off-road, no real failures other than a grinding rear diff replaced under warranty.

Then in 1998 I saw that white 1996 Land Rover Discovery lease return with only 30,000 miles and an ARB rear locker sitting on the local dealer's lot. I had 4 months left on my Jeep lease but I bought the Disco. The poor Jeep sat alone, unloved, in the far corner of my apartment parking lot for 4 months as I unbolted the bull bar, Hellas, roof rack and sold them off. I told myself that I should feel badly for just parking it....but I didn't.

Similar story here. I ordered a 94 Cherokee with the Up Country suspension and the fancy transfer case with the 2wd, awd, and 4wd settings. I vividly remember that LR was bringing the Discovery to the US market. Man, I wanted the LR so badly, but I decided to be practical and bought the Jeep instead. Every time I saw a brand new Disco drive down the street, I felt horrible.

The Cherokee was a complete piece of garbage. Over the next 3 years, door hinges broke, a valve spring broke, seat brackets broke, rear diff let go, etc. To top it off, if you put 4 people in the car it pretty much sat on the rear bumpstops. The unibody was so flexy if you put one wheel on the curb, you could barely open a door. I hated that car and was so happy to get rid of it.

The big difference between then and now is that the LR magic is gone. We can't buy a new diesel 110. It kills me. For whatever reason, I still get giddy when I see a 110. I remember the first time I met Chris Snell and saw his 110. It was like seeing the holy grail. It makes it that much worse that we can't go out and buy one. If they were available here, I'd gladly pay for one. I just don't have the patience to find a truck and then spend the time on it like Snell and JSQ.

That's why the Jeep is attractive. Sure, there's no magic. It's easy. If it goes into production, I'll give it serious consideration.
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  #10837  
Old May 21st, 2015, 10:15 AM
chris snell chris snell is offline
Christopher Snell
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Tacoma
Posts: 1,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I know for a fact that truck is extremely functional.

If functional is the standard, why the Jeep? Why not another Chrysler product like a Ram 2500 4x4 with the Cummins like the BLM rangers use? Why not a new Tacoma, or a LR4? These all meet the "functional" standard and they're not just some EJS marketing prop that will never see a production line.

I'm not going to make some Dendy Jarrett ExPo argument about bleeding green and the worthiness of the Land Rover. I know these trucks are pieces of shit. We all put up with a lot of unnecessary bullshit when we take Land Rovers out and use them. I don't doubt that some of you do work and take hunting trips that demand something more reliable and you won't see me dissing the Toyota. But, I'm not going to lie and say that I would sell my truck someday to buy a Jeep.
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  #10838  
Old May 21st, 2015, 10:26 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 13,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjv
I liken this entire situation, and imagine that at the end of the horse drawn carriage era, automobiles started replacing horses.

To me this current Land Rover situation feels a lot like when various guns were banned. Boy, did that suck.

Remember the AUG?:


The AUG was importable under the 1986 McClure-Volkmer Act and it was banned from importation under the 1989 Bush Ban. There were still some AUGs in the country and they were still transferable, but they were going for big bucks. In that way, there are many parallels between the AUG and the Defender.

People who wanted an AUG were desperate and were buying surrogate stuff like the Bushmaster M17S:


That didn't last. It's pretty easy to see that's not an AUG. There's nothing really wrong with the M17S. It's just not an AUG.

But then some rays of hope appeared. Then came along the fake AUG from Microtech Small Arms Research:


This one actually looked like an AUG. You didn't even have to squint super hard into Lady Chinky Eyes to fool yourself. You could look right at and tell yourself it was kinda sorta a real AUG.

People bought these MSARs like crazy when they first came out. It was like drinkers after the repeal of Prohibition. Even people who didn't want an AUG before the ban bought the MSAR. It was hilarious. They even told themselves the MSAR was more funkshunal than the AUG because it had a forward assist and bolt hold-open device that could be accessed from the outside. Yeah, it was BETTER than the AUG. Then people came to their senses and realized: (1) it wasn't an AUG; (2) they bought a fake; and (3) the MSAR was a piece of junk.

I think we Land Rover owners are in a similar situation now. We're walking around like mindless zombies and wondering what car to buy next. And like chumps we're telling ourselves anything and everything to make ourselves feel better and justify whatever decision we end up making.

This situation sucks.
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  #10839  
Old May 21st, 2015, 11:16 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 13,893
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell
If functional is the standard, why the Jeep? Why not another Chrysler product like a Ram 2500 4x4 with the Cummins like the BLM rangers use? Why not a new Tacoma....

Because that Africa Edishun Jeep has the form factor of a Defender. The Ram 2500 and Tacoma don't.

The Tacoma is a total crack-up. It's such a good truck. But it doesn't look like a fake Defender, so people don't rave about it as they do with the Jeep Africa Edishun and older Land Cruiser. Tacoma owners don't have to prove, defend, or justify their purchase.
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  #10840  
Old May 21st, 2015, 12:10 PM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 789
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Because that Africa Edishun Jeep has the form factor of a Defender. The Ram 2500 and Tacoma don't.

The Tacoma is a total crack-up. It's such a good truck. But it doesn't look like a fake Defender, so people don't rave about it as they do with the Jeep Africa Edishun and older Land Cruiser. Tacoma owners don't have to prove, defend, or justify their purchase.

I don't recall anyone here raving about it.
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  #10841  
Old May 21st, 2015, 12:18 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Rupp
I don't recall anyone here raving about it.

That's because it's not out yet.

If it comes out and people actually buy it, it'll be the toast the town with high fives and blackslaps all around. Oh this is so much better than a Defender. Oh the diesel has such range. I'm going to be buried in this truck. Thank you so much Jeep for keeping it real. Oh I LOVE this truck, even though love is illogical and everything I say about this truck online is numerical in nature or phrased in logical terms.

It was the same for the MSAR.
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  #10842  
Old May 21st, 2015, 12:57 PM
blue blue is offline
Bill Gill, aka chump hater
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 860
I'll never buy another Jeep for my own use. My wife & I briefly entertained a new Grand Cherokee now that we have a new baby but we never got beyond the entertaining-the-idea stage. By all accounts, these things are pieces of shit.
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  #10843  
Old May 21st, 2015, 01:09 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 13,893
But Jeep is owned by Chrysler.

Chrysler is owned by FIAT.

FIAT owns Ferrari.

If you bought a Jeep, you'd be getting a Ferrari.

Seriously, do the math.
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  #10844  
Old May 21st, 2015, 03:51 PM
blue blue is offline
Bill Gill, aka chump hater
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 860
Just like a beautiful woman, I guess that even Ferrari has to take a shit at some point.
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  #10845  
Old May 21st, 2015, 05:39 PM
RyanLoehr RyanLoehr is offline
Ryan Loehr
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Kansas City, Missouri
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
That's because it's not out yet.

If it comes out and people actually buy it, it'll be the toast the town with high fives and blackslaps all around. Oh this is so much better than a Defender. Oh the diesel has such range. I'm going to be buried in this truck. Thank you so much Jeep for keeping it real. Oh I LOVE this truck, even though love is illogical and everything I say about this truck online is numerical in nature or phrased in logical terms.

It was the same for the MSAR.

It's doubtful the AFRICA edition ever becomes anything more than a concept vehicle.

The Easter Jeep Safari is the same even that spawned this concept a few years ago:



Aside from whether you like the forward control concept, anyone can see that is something that would never see the light of day as any sort of production vehicle.

That said, the Wangler is due for a redesign in 2018. Just like seemingly every other vehicle in the world, the Wrangler has gotten bigger every redesign, so I could see a stretched version like the AFRICA, but I don't ever see them coming out with one without a removable top.

I can see them coming out with a few more variants, such as a truck version along the likes of the AEV Brute:



I'm sure that does nothing to quell the idea that Jeep is simply copying Rover with regard to what it's doing.
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  #10846  
Old May 21st, 2015, 07:48 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Posts: 2,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
But Jeep is owned by Chrysler.

Chrysler is owned by FIAT.

FIAT owns Ferrari.

If you bought a Jeep, you'd be getting a Ferrari.

Seriously, do the math.

"Jeep is America's only real sports car."

Enzo Ferrari
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  #10847  
Old May 21st, 2015, 08:18 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,157
For some reason there seems to be a communication disconnect here.

I think most of us pretty much agree that the Jeep "AFRICA" has several things going for it aside from the concept vehicle crap that Jeep bolted or pasted on it.

That doesn't mean I'm in love with it or even desire to buy one.

I "might" buy one if I had a business that required a reliable 4WD that I could buy off the rack and simply drive/depreciate it into the ground. More or less a disposable truck. Frankly I would put Toyota in this same category (including ROW FJ's) except they are better built and more reliable. If I needed one for business I would buy one to drive/depreciate. I've driven, worked on friends trucks and rented enough Jeeps over the years on the trail and when visiting Mexico and the Caribbean that I feel I know them pretty well.

I have no desire to purchase any Jeep or Toyota but I do admire many of them.

However, I would like to point out that claiming that Jeep is "copying" Land Rover or Toyota and thus lacks legitimacy is ignorant. Jeep has some serious history and many of these concept vehicles are simply trying to latch onto that history (kinda like Land Rover does).

Also equating Jeep with the rednecks that often drive/buy them is a mistake.
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  #10848  
Old May 22nd, 2015, 10:19 AM
blue blue is offline
Bill Gill, aka chump hater
 
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  #10849  
Old May 26th, 2015, 01:51 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,281
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris snell
If functional is the standard, why the Jeep? Why not another Chrysler product like a Ram 2500 4x4 with the Cummins like the BLM rangers use? Why not a new Tacoma, or a LR4?

Because the only truly functional vehicle among those you listed is the Tacoma. The Ram and the Disco4 have major shortcomings that the Tacoma and Jeep don't. And I'm positive that the Jeep is better than the Tacoma on the trail. But Tacomas are definitely really good trucks. Just ugly as all hell. I think the Africa looks pretty good. I can't say the same of any Tacoma ever.
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  #10850  
Old Yesterday, 11:42 AM
hks3sgte hks3sgte is offline
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