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  #1  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:15 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
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unconventional sniper posture



Brits.

(headshake)

I will freely admit to having never seen this before, but why is the shooter bolt-open, finger on the trigger?
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  #2  
Old August 18th, 2006, 02:36 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
.... why is the shooter bolt-open, finger on the trigger?


You mean unlike the true Bad Asses who have their AI's bolt open and with the finger off the trigger?:


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  #3  
Old August 18th, 2006, 06:04 PM
DJ Menasco DJ Menasco is offline
DJ Menasco
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ


Brits.

(headshake)

I will freely admit to having never seen this before, but why is the shooter bolt-open, finger on the trigger?


Hmm. I only see three hands. Perhaps the Sniper is multi-tasking?
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  #4  
Old August 18th, 2006, 08:03 PM
read read is offline
Read Kerlin
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Anything for queen and country.
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  #5  
Old August 18th, 2006, 08:39 PM
LoneXhere LoneXhere is offline
Bobby Black
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Long Beach, CA
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Maybe his helper is French and trying to surrender.
____________________
It's five o'clock wherever I am

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  #6  
Old August 19th, 2006, 06:06 AM
kevb kevb is offline
Kevin Barrett
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts: 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Menasco
Hmm. I only see three hands. Perhaps the Sniper is multi-tasking?
Could be some kind of weird infantry recruit initiation ceremony we hear about in the papers!
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  #7  
Old August 21st, 2006, 11:19 AM
DJ Menasco DJ Menasco is offline
DJ Menasco
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
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In all honesty I wouldn't think this would be too viable of a position since the spotter's breathing would interfere with the snipers marksmanship.
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  #8  
Old August 21st, 2006, 11:57 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I'm not sure how much breathing would come into play, since the rifle's forend seems to be rested on the gay man's pelvis, but I still don't see the utility of that two-man position. There are many rifle positions that are very stable and much easier to implement.

The most stable position is prone if the terrain allows it. If there is brush or an obstruction or for whatever reason the terrain does not permit prone, the rifleman may use the kneeling or sitting positions. Kneeling is faster than sitting but not as stable.




There are numerous variations on the sitting position.

For maximum stability, utilize the loop sling:




These Outdoor Life photos are hokey and the sling is improperly used in that pic, but you get the idea. The loop sling lets the rifleman relax his support arm and hand, and the rifle is held secure with bone and leather instead of muscle tension.

The loop sling also doubles as a carry strap for the rifle. It's hard to say for sure, but that pic of MoD Accuracy International PM looks to have a mere carry strap fitted, and not a loop sling. These guys don't get it.

A good rifleman using the loop sling and sitting position is almost as accurate as he is from prone.
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  #9  
Old August 21st, 2006, 04:05 PM
DJ Menasco DJ Menasco is offline
DJ Menasco
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 158
Good point.

His chest really doesn't come in contact with the rifle.
Still it's a bit awkward (for the bottom end) and as you pointed out there are other positions that afford greater stability.

I'm curious to know what kind of situation warrants this training?

Anyone know?

Actually after looking at the picture again it looks as if the spotter is acting a surrogate for the snipers left arm? Perhaps if wounded this might be the alternative?
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  #10  
Old August 21st, 2006, 04:24 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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It might have been a joke. The soldiers there don't look like snipers. They might be regular British Army soldiers getting acquainted with riflery (the Accuracy International PM was the standard issue British sniper rifle and wasn't issued to the infantry at large, who are issued the SA80 battle carbine), and the training crew had some fun with the recruits?

Whatever the explanation for that silly pic is, I don't think they're snipers. The British snipers usually look bad ass:

















All of those shots are of real British snipers with their PM's ("Precision Magazine"):





I think the British type-classify the PM the L96 or L91A1 or something like that. I can't recall for sure.

The PM is still in use but the British snipers are also issued the Accuracy International AWSM ("Arctic Warfare Super Magnum"):











I believe the Brits type-classify their AWSM's as L115. Thus far, every L115 I've seen has been in .338 Lapua Mag:


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  #11  
Old August 21st, 2006, 04:53 PM
dchapman dchapman is online now
Daniel Chapman
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I've never shot that gun or ever held one. But, it does seem to have a heavy barrel on it. If you're shooting at 200+ yards, is it really expected to shoot with A1 accuracy in a kneeling or sitting position?

I mean, I've shot deer at 150 yards with a 7mm in a kneeling position, and squirrels and ground hogs at 75+ yards with a .22 Magnum. But, when you're talking head/heart shots at a great distance, maybe even 600+ yards, wouldn't you rather have a rest or be laying down?
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  #12  
Old August 21st, 2006, 05:10 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
The most stable position is prone if the terrain allows it. If there is brush or an obstruction or for whatever reason the terrain does not permit prone, the rifleman may use the kneeling or sitting positions. Kneeling is faster than sitting but not as stable.

....

A good rifleman using the loop sling and sitting position is almost as accurate as he is from prone.


If you are in tall grass, you may not be able to shoot from prone. Perhaps there is a fence between you and the target; you may not be able to shoot from prone. Perhaps you are lying down on a downhill and the target is so elevated that you lose the inherent stability that prone otherwise provides. There are many times where prone does not work. A skilled rifleman knows and practices the other positions (and there are many of them) because he knows that he cannot rely on prone alone.

The skilled rifleman will also use a rest (improvised or otherwise) whenever time and the surrounding conditions permit, to maximize the probability of connecting with the target.
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  #13  
Old August 21st, 2006, 09:30 PM
Rover Puppy
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
The skilled rifleman will also use a rest (improvised or otherwise) whenever time and the surrounding conditions permit, to maximize the probability of connecting with the target.

The guys face does look quite red. Check out the difference between the color of his hands and the color of his face. Also, check out his expression. That guy is extremly uncomfortable. Any guesses on how long he's been holding his breath?

Best Regards Jamie, Blue, and Angel
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  #14  
Old August 21st, 2006, 10:59 PM
nosivad_bor nosivad_bor is offline
Rob Davison
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,051
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
If you are in tall grass, you may not be able to shoot from prone. Perhaps there is a fence between you and the target; you may not be able to shoot from prone. Perhaps you are lying down on a downhill and the target is so elevated that you lose the inherent stability that prone otherwise provides. There are many times where prone does not work. A skilled rifleman knows and practices the other positions (and there are many of them) because he knows that he cannot rely on prone alone.

The skilled rifleman will also use a rest (improvised or otherwise) whenever time and the surrounding conditions permit, to maximize the probability of connecting with the target.

And YOU, Daniel, are no skilled rifleman !
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  #15  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 01:26 PM
dchapman dchapman is online now
Daniel Chapman
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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I use a pocket knife to stalk my prey. I've got mad pocket knife Jedi skills.
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  #16  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 06:44 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,155
From the MoD site:




"A British paratrooper carrying the sniper rifle whilst helping to process recruits for the Kabul Regiment. B Company 2 PARA were responsible for training the recruits for a period of six weeks. British troops were deployed in Afghanistan on Operation FINGAL under the auspices of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF). The mission was to assist the interim administration with security and stability."


Weapon is the Accuracy International AWSM, presumably in .338 Lapua, fitted with a Parker Hale bipod, and covered in cloth tape. Telescope is a Schmidt & Bender variable, private labeled for AI, and fitted with a hood for the objective lens. Note the sniper has rubber banded the bikini lens covers to prevent their inadvertent loss in the field. The magazine is left inserted to prevent dust from getting into the AWSM's action. The magazine may be empty or full; I don't know. However, the safety is set to "fire" position, so presumably the chamber is empty around camp.

This is a sweet rifle.
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  #17  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 07:30 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,155
Here's another:




"Op Telic Bridge Four Basra Ima Snipers of Support Company, 1st Battalion, The Irish Guards. In a dawn raid on a University/factory complex, within sight of their patrol base at Bridge Four, on the outskirts of Basra, the Irish Guards attacked and cleared the base after coming under fire from small arms mortars and SAM Missile systems which were fired from Iraqi positions at a British Lynx Helicopter supporting the Irish Guards. Four sniper pairs set up within the buildings to provide covering fire for the Royal Engineers who were attempting to put out one of the numerous oil well fires within the complex."


Man, what a tag team.

Both snipers are using the older Accuracy International PM, but fitted with the newer Schmidt & Bender variable telescopes with 34mm tubes and objective hoods in place of the original Schmidt & Bender 6x42 the L96 came fitted with. Both men have rubber banded their bikini lens covers to their telescopes. Both have also fitted makeshift shims to their combs for a proper cheek weld with the taller telescopes.

Note how the closer sniper has his body arranged in an improvised field position rather than military prone or Olympic prone to suit the height of the edge of the roof. This is a good example of classic prone positions not working. His weapon is at such a height that he cannot rest his right elbow on the ground. Rather than arch his back backward in an uncomfortable and unstable position, he rests on his side to get additional height.

Curiously, this sniper has his PM's handstop resting on the concrete. This is generally considered a no-no in riflery. A rifle recoils while the bullet is still in the barrel. Resting the rifle on a hard surface can cause the rifle to bounce off the rest in a strange manner and throw off the shot. This is especially true with the PM's chassis system and the handstop is mounted directly to the aluminum chassis rather than to something "soft" like a wooden or fiberglass forend. But I guess you gotta do what you gotta do.

The closer sniper's weapon appears to have the AI loop sling installed backwards. I guess even the British snipers do not understand the shooting sling. It's almost a lost art today.
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  #18  
Old August 22nd, 2006, 08:07 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,155
Oh shit, check this out:




"On board HMS Cumberland, the Maritime Sniper Team (MST) is seen disembarking from the ship's Lynx helicopter. After taking part in an exercise with the Lynx crew shooting at a target towed behind the ship. The MST's role would have been to stop a "Go Fast" by putting a few rounds through the engines to disable it. They used an Accuracy International AWM [sic], a 50 calibre sniper rifle. It can penetrate just about anything, especially outboard motors. The whole crew became involved in a counter drugs exercise, with the Law Enforcement Detachment Team (LEDET) practising their boat drills. Cumberland had only just arrived in the Caribbean, for the start of a short deployment. Her main roles in the area were Counter Drugs Operations (CD Ops) and Hurricane relief operations, should such assistance be required."




"A Royal Marine Sniper deployed to HMS Southampton on Counter Drug Operations. Having sailed from Portsmouth on 22 Aug, her APT deployment moved to the Caribbean for 4 weeks of counter drugs operations, including visits to Puerto Rico, the British Virgin Islands and Grenada, before returning to the UK at end of Feb 06. HMS Southampton is a Portsmouth based Type 42 Destroyer."


So the Royal Marines are using the AW50. PM, AWSM, AW50? Damn, someone's going Uptown. Nice.
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  #19  
Old October 18th, 2006, 09:29 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,155
A friend just sent me this story:


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../01/wirq01.xml


1250 meters is quite impressive.
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  #20  
Old January 3rd, 2007, 06:14 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,155
Here's an AI vid on the Precision Magazine:




The video ain't all that, but there's some Schmidt & Bender love in there.

And here's an old AI promotional vid of the Arctic Warfare System:




This is a very good video.

To me, the Arctic Warfare System represents the zenith of current sniper rifle development. No other SWS delivers the accuracy, precision, interchangeable parts, strength, field reliability, field maintainability, longevity, etc. of the AW system.

The video doesn't mention the AW system's "wear ring" design. Inside the forward receiver ring is a steel ring against which the bolt's three locking lugs bear. The locking lugs do not bear against the receiver ring. The wear ring is designed to wear more quickly than the locking lugs and suffers the vast majority of the set-back. When headspace becomes excessive after thousands upon thousands of rounds fired and after several barrel changes and the bolt closes on a NO GO headspace gauge, the wear ring may be replaced easily by removing the barrel and headspace is restored to perfection once again. It's an ingenious design. Gunsmith techniques like conventional breeching methods are never required throughout the life of the system. This is AI's way of producing a perpetual shooting machine.
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