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  #26  
Old April 20th, 2006, 09:05 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I would think a 45-grain JHP fired from a .223 would easily go through windshields, carb bodies, IIA body armor, etc. For hard target penetration, I doubt there's a big difference from 45-grainers to 69-grainers.

With concrete, I think you would have major problems, not just with 45-grainers but with any rifle round.

For soft tissue, I would think the 45-grain JHP would penetrate a lot less than 12". The 45-grain JHP's are varmint bullets, which are designed to disintegrate on impact and turn prairie dogs into red mist.

I think the FiveSeven is very similar to .22 Hornet or .22 K Hornet in terms of external and terminal ballistcs.
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  #27  
Old May 13th, 2006, 09:31 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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David, David's wife, and I hit Moore N Moore Sporting Clays yesterday. David and his wife shot mostly a loaner Beretta 391 Urika in 20-Bore. They did great! They're natural born killers. They tagged several times more targets than most beginners do. I hope they continue to shoot. If they do, they could be The Armageddon Couple.

BTW, this was the first 20-Bore Urika that I have fired. It's a total pussycat. The thing has very little felt recoil. This is to be expected from a gas-operated 20 self-loader, but the Urika seems to have less recoil than the Remington 1100, perhaps because of the stock design. I also like that the Urika has the BB gun safety in front of the trigger and not behind it. For the recoil-shy shooter, I think 20 Urika is an ideal choice.
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  #28  
Old May 13th, 2006, 11:27 AM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
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Thanks again John, we had an awesome time! You'll have to make some gun recommendations for me. Jen enjoyed herself and is slightly suffering with sore arms todays.
Looking forward to next time!
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  #29  
Old May 13th, 2006, 01:49 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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There's no one "best" gun, but I'm going to recommend a 20-Bore for you. You could handle it no problem and Jen could shoot it as well without getting beat up.

The Merkel 47 is a nice choice:


http://www.gsifirearms.com/gsif/prod...asp?prod_id=70


I think the Merkel 47 goes for something like $4k.

If you want an over/under, the Krieghoff K-20 is a very nice choice. A standard K-20 goes for something like $9k. Here's a very nice one:


http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976708904.htm


If you want a 12 over/under, the Blaser F3 is a very nice choice. I think the F3 goes for something like $5k. A Krieghoff K-80 base model is about $9 I believe. The F3, K-20, and K-80 are sort of like Porsches, so it could be a little weird having a Porsche as your first car.

All of the above are high-end guns and they're quite expensive. You could buy them used for considerably less. Guns are not like cars, and used guns are often as good as new but cost considerably less. Other guns are well used but have thousands upon thousands of rounds of life left in them. For example, a used K-80 or K-20 will still last you many hundreds of thousands of rounds and still lock up vault tight.

You can also get doubles for much less. For example, Jack's Ugartecheas cost $1300 new and they're very nice guns for the money. Aaron has the Beretta 686 Sporting and it's a choice starter double, but I think it's too big for you with its target gun weight and 30" barrels, and it would definitely be too big for Jen. Beretta also has other 686 models but they usually have very glossy wood and can be unsightly.

You can also get a repeater instead of a double. A Benelli Super 90 goes for about $800. I think that Urika you shot yesterday goes for about the same. A Remington 870 pump is like $300 I believe.

But my recommendation of all of these choices (assuming you wanted to buy a shotgun at all) would be a 20-Bore game gun double in SxS configuration. The broad sighting plane of the SxS would help with your cross dominance. You could shoot this gun no problem. So could Jen. The SxS game guns are also more general-purpose in nature than specialty target guns like the K-20 or F3, so you could hunt with them as well as shoot clay targets if you wanted to. The target guns are too heavy to lug around all day. The 20-Bore SxS would also make a nice home defense shotgun. Load one chamber with a slug and the other with buckshot. With double triggers, you have instant load selection.

If you wanted a 12 SxS, I am seriously digging this one at Wings & Clays:


http://www.800shotgun.com/usedguns/index238.htm


"Merkel 47E SxS, 12 Gauge, 28" .010/.015 choked, Double Trigger, Straight Grip, Butt Plate, Case Color, Cased, SN: 385082 Pre-Owned, Excellent Condition. $2895."


I prefer the 12 to the 20. The 20 is a very elegant killer on upland birds and it's plenty for clay targets, but the 20 has always felt a little toy-like to me.
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  #30  
Old May 13th, 2006, 03:40 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Location: Torrance, CA
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This is a nice one:


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...47e20g_leh.jsp


The wood on this one is plainer than the one at Wings & Clays, but then the wood is far from ugly. Actually, it's very appropriate wood to have on a starter double like the Merkel 47E. Weight is listed at 5.75 lbs., which is ideal for a 20-Bore game gun. I think a 100-shot round of sporting clays would be the max for this gun though, with the light weight and hard butt. I like this gun a lot. It's very solid from muzzle to butt, without frills or other uselessness. $3600 for this isn't bad at all.

Cabela's has another 20-Bore 47E in stock with superb wood:


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...a47e4l_ham.jpg
http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...a47e7l_ham.jpg


I think that wood is just perfect for a 47E grade gun, but that gun has a single trigger. I much prefer the double triggers on a game gun.

Pacific Sporting Arms is a Merkel dealer and may have some 47E's in stock. You might take a look there if you're interested in a Merkel. For guns with wooden stocks, I always want to see the particular gun I'm buying because no two pieces of wood are alike.
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  #31  
Old May 15th, 2006, 09:15 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheki
Found these too, what do you think. One thing I do like is the adjustable comb, neither of these have that though.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976716570.htm
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976721254.htm


You sent that to me by email, but I thought I would reply on this thread so that others could give their input. Guns are very personal in nature and I definitely have my strong preferences regarding guns, so I think it's better if others give their input as well so that you don't miss out on good recommendations. There are many nice guns out there that I either forget about or don't recommend because I personally don't dig them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sheki


I don't like that K-80 for you. It's a dedicated skeet gun and very specialized in nature. For example, that gun has Tula chokes. The Tula choke is a weirdo choke system developed at the Tula Arsenal in Russia, I believe. The bore diameter expands near the muzzle, and then constricts again right before the muzzle. When the shot charge enters the expanded region, it naturally expands. When it hits the constricted region, it chokes down again and produces a tighter pattern without any visible constriction in the bore diameter. This is also known as a "jug choke" and is common on American combat shoguns that were previously cylinder-bore weapons.

This is "bad" for you I think. Tula chokes are fixed and not interchangeable. For your first gun, I would recommend interchangeable chokes or at least a fixed choke combination like IC/MOD which is about as flexible as interchangeable chokes. Tula chokes are very open in nature, making this K-80 a dedicated short-range affair. This is not a problem for skeet (a short-range game), but the gun will pattern too open for games like trap and sporting clays, and it will be too open for things like waterfowling.

That K-80 also has the JS air cushion butt, which looks like this:





The JS system is a buffered butt for recoil-shy shooters. I think it looks absolutely hideous. I would rather get punished by the recoil. The K-80 is a very heavy gun and the recoil is not punishing by any means, so the JS system on a K-80 seems out of place to me.

I would also think that the JS system throws off the stock dimensions. The comb ends up being very tall unless the original buttstock is shaved down considerably.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sheki


I don't like this gun either. It has the aluminum receiver. I prefer the steel. One of the cool things about the K-80 is that it will last many hundreds of thousands of rounds. I don't know what the longevity is on the aluminum receivers, but it is bound to be less than the steel versions.

This gun also has fixed chokes. It's a dedicated skeet gun, with 12-Bore, 20-Bore, 28-Bore, and .410 abilities. The 12-Bore barrels are fixed skeet choke, which make them suitable for short range only.

I'm ambivalent on the adjustable comb. My K-80 has an adjustable comb, but I would prefer the fixed comb. I prefer the looks of the fixed comb. You have a thin face, so I don't think you need the adjustable comb. Whatever buttstock dimensions you end up getting, I think you will quickly adapt and learn to shoot that particular gun, especially because you are a new shotgunner.
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  #32  
Old May 15th, 2006, 09:28 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
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I might suggest the B. Rizzini Artemis standard:

http://www.williamlarkinmoore.com/rizzinib.html

William Larkin Moore lists the price as $2,490.
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  #33  
Old May 15th, 2006, 09:41 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheki
My cousin told me I should check them out. Here is a link to a sales video, what do you think? Have you heard of them?

http://www.connecticutshotgun.com/rblvideo.htm


This is a good example of getting input from others. I had forgotten completely about the RBL.

The RBL is a very nice choice for you. I don't like the "standard" RBL with pistol grip, beavertail forend, and single trigger. I think it's ugly. However, the RBL is available with splinter forend, straight grip, and double triggers.

The video showed the RBL with the optional assisted opening. If you did get the RBL, I would definitely get it with the self-opening feature. This is a feature on the finest Purdeys, and it's very cool.

One turn-off to me about the RBL is that it's sort of a wannabe Uptown gun, with its full coverage scroll engraving on the receiver, travel case, and accessories like glasses and earplugs. I wish Galazan's dispensed with the case, glasses, and earplugs and concentrated more on the gun. The inletting is uneven on the RBL's buttstock and the wood is proud. There are also gaps between the forend and the barrels. There is also a gap between the barrel flats and the bar, and between the breech and the standing breech. The imperfections show even more because of the RBL's round action and concave receiver lines where they meet the buttstock. This unevenness is common on guns of this grade, but they really stand out to me on guns with detonated receiver shapes, oil finishes, and engraving. The RBL is so smooth in overall shape and lacking in "hard" details that the imperfections really stand out.

But the RBL could be an excellent choice for you. The price is definitely right. I'm not sure how Galazan's is able to price the gun this low. I dig the cryogenic stress relief on the barrels and the Titanium Nitride coating on the internal parts. These are very nice touches.

My personal favorite RBL would be in 20-Bore chambering, with 28" barrels, fixed IC/MOD choke, concave rib, splinter forend, straight grip, wood butt, double triggers, case-colored receiver, self-opening option, English walnut, London Oil Finish (dark alkanet stain and the pores not filled completely), and wood upgrade (which I think is necessary to match the full-coverage engraving on the receiver). Galazan's can easily handle these options.
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  #34  
Old May 15th, 2006, 12:31 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I might suggest the B. Rizzini Artemis standard:

http://www.williamlarkinmoore.com/rizzinib.html

William Larkin Moore lists the price as $2,490.





I feel a tremor in the Force. Jack is recommending an over/under and I'm recommending a SxS. Something is very wrong here.
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  #35  
Old May 15th, 2006, 12:59 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Here's another very nice K-20:


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...gk20spt_kc.jsp


I really like the wood on that gun. This gun has 30" barrels, but I don't think the gun would look weird on you the way a 12 with 30" barrels would look on you. The K-20 is so slim that the long barrels still won't make you look as if you're a little kid holding his father's shotgun. I'm hesitant to get 30" barrels on my K-80, but if I were to get a K-20 it would have 30" barrels.

This K-20 weighs 8 lbs. so it should recoil like a pussycat for Jen, even with full-house 3" magnum loads. You can see the thick comb and butt in this pic:


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...spt_04l_kc.jpg


The K-20 is designed for clay target shooting, but it is also designed for high-volume field shooting in Argentina and such. The stock design is very thick and dissipates perceived recoil tremendously. The recoil pad almost isn't necessary, but it's there to attenuate felt recoil even more. In contrast, the stocks on field 20's are designed to be very light in weight and appealing to the eye (razor thin combs) and usually lack recoil pads. The field guns recoil a lot more than the K-20.

The engraving on this K-20's receiver is the new "standard" or base model engraving on the latest Krieghoff K-80s and K-20s. I'm not crazy about it because I'm still bummed Krieghoff discontinued the CNC'd engraving like this:




That machine engraving is a face only a mother could love. I love it, but I can understand why Krieghoff dropped that engraving in favor of the engraving on this K-20.

$9,000 is a lot of money to spend on any gun. This is especially true of your first shotgun. But if you're willing to spend that much, this K-20 deserves a look. You will basically never "outgrow" this gun, no matter how good of a shooter you become or no matter how discriminating your taste in guns becomes.
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  #36  
Old May 15th, 2006, 01:18 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Oh man, I was looking at the William Larkin Moore site and found this beaut:




"HOLLAND & HOLLAND, SXS, C Grade, 12 GA 2 1/2" cham., 28'', M& IM, DT, Straight Grip, Splinter Forearm, Smooth Concave Rib, Scroll Border Engraving, Casehardened Receiver w/ traces remaining, horn butt plate, Spotless bores, 6# 8oz, VG Condition. $4900."


I love those H&H Dominions. I think I like them better than the Royals.
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  #37  
Old May 15th, 2006, 03:08 PM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 571
Thanks John and Jack for the recommendations. I like the K20; however, it seems heavy for a 20 gauge at over 8lbs. I think I'd like to shoot more before I decide; however, I do prefer the ascetics of an over under. Thanks for all the advice and am looking forward to going shooting again. My cousin invited me any weekday afternoon I was free, so hopefully I'll get a few more days in before my next trip to Moore-n-Moore.
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  #38  
Old May 15th, 2006, 03:49 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I had recommended a SxS to you initially because of your left eye dominance. But if you're digging the aesthetics of the over/under, then that says a lot to me and you might consider an over/under instead of a SxS or a repeater. It would be unnatural for you to get a SxS or repeater if you preferred the over/under.

I'm pretty much ambivalent between the over/under and the SxS. The over/under is the technically superior and stronger design with greater longevity and resistance to going off the face with repeated use, while the SxS with double triggers is the more elegant design and offers barrel selection for shots at different ranges. I prefer the over/under for targets and the SxS for the field, both decisions being based largely on looks and tradition more than function.

The K-20 is indeed a heavy gun. That nice K-20 at Cabela's weighed 8 lbs. 3 oz., but the average K-20 weighs in at considerably less at 7.5 lbs. (The weights vary from gun to gun because of the weight of the wood, and no two pieces of wood are identical in weight.) 7.5 lbs. is heavy for a 20-Bore game gun but it's about right for a 20-Bore target gun or a universal 20-Bore gun (the gun you're going to use for everything, including clay target, waterfowl, turkey, home defense, and so on).

The K-20 is designed for clay target shooting and for Argentina shooting. Both types of shooting usually entail hundreds of shots per day. A lightweight game gun weighing 6 lbs. or less with thin comb and wood butt is a joy to carry around all day, but it would be punishing to shoot such a gun several hundred times per day. Even 100 rounds at the sporting clays course with such a gun would be plenty. The K-20 can handle these volumes no problem. The K-20 is also suitable for use with heavy 20-Bore loads such as the 3" mag waterfowl and turkey loads.

The lightweight game guns also do not have the longevity of guns like the K-20. The K-20 will last several lifetimes of heavy use. I think you'd be lucky if a lightweight game gun lasted you even one lifetime of light use. It's very common to see these lightweight game guns off the face and in need of servicing/rebuilding after several years of heavy use.

Also be mindful that the lightweight game guns will not swing as nicely as a K-20. The game guns are very quick into action and are suitable for shots like that overhead mini at Moore N Moore a few days ago, but the vast majority of other shots will be better handled by the heavier guns like the K-20.

Also be aware that the 20-Bore over/unders are usually very toy-like in appearance. The 20-Bore game guns are very sleek in appearance, but the 20-Bore over/unders can look and feel like kiddie guns. The K-20 with 30" barrels is an exception, because the gun is so long and the stocks are so beefy. The K-20 action is also very beefy for a 20-Bore action so the K-20 overall still has a very adult look to it. If you were to buy a Beretta 686 or 687 in 20, for example, you should definitely look at one before you buy it. It looks like a woman's or child's gun.

Definitely shoot more before buying any gun, let alone any gun in the $5k to $9k price range. That's serious money. Perhaps we can do a clays day with Aaron and Jack the next time you're in town. You can shoot and examine their weapons and see if anything jumps out at you. My K-80 is sort of a weirdo gun and there are many, many other choices out there.

Also remember that you don't have to spend $5k to $9k to get a shootable shotgun. My recommendations naturally gravitate to guns that I like and I'm naturally going to recommend guns that I would like to buy. However, there are a lot of really nice starter doubles and repeaters out there that would serve you perfectly well. You could start with one of these if you're inclined. Then, if you got really into it, you could go out and buy your dream gun.
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  #39  
Old May 16th, 2006, 11:44 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
The RBL is a two year wait minimum.

and there are lots of political wranglings involved.

i can direct you to some lengthy threads on ssmbbs.
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  #40  
Old May 16th, 2006, 04:34 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Location: Torrance, CA
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LOL. Two or more years for that thing? Who do these guys think they are? Holland & Holland?

A two-year wait or even longer for a machine-made gun is ridiculous.
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  #41  
Old May 17th, 2006, 09:05 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
LOL. Two or more years for that thing? Who do these guys think they are? Holland & Holland?

A two-year wait or even longer for a machine-made gun is ridiculous.


seriously.

I was beginning to wonder if RBL stood for "Ruger Blue Label"
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  #42  
Old May 17th, 2006, 09:32 PM
BeachBum
 
Posts: n/a
You both need to stop talking so much. John has never shot a live target, I'm sorry but that is like wheeling on your computer.

And Jack, when it comes to dove it seems all you do is wait for them to fly over.

I have friends with ranches also.

"Jerking off is spending $5000 on a gun and never using it on a live target"
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  #43  
Old May 17th, 2006, 09:40 PM
BeachBum
 
Posts: n/a
Without going through hunter safety, you are putting us all in danger
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  #44  
Old May 18th, 2006, 08:23 AM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachBum
You both need to stop talking so much. John has never shot a live target, I'm sorry but that is like wheeling on your computer.

And Jack, when it comes to dove it seems all you do is wait for them to fly over.

I have friends with ranches also.

"Jerking off is spending $5000 on a gun and never using it on a live target"

I know a tiny bit more than nothing when it comes to shotguns; however, your statement is so wrong in so many ways I wouldn't even know where to begin. Are you sure you don't own a Jeep?


What is your opinion of dear hunters who bait an area and then sit in a tree for a day or 2?
or people who fish? All they do is blindly cast a hook with food on it into the waters of a hopefully densely populated area of fish.

You're probably more of the type of person that lives in the woods armed with nothing more than a sharp stick. You stalk your prey, tasting it's feces to find out where they graze. eventually finding your prey you jump on it's back jabbing your stick into its jugular holding on until it has finally bled to death. At that point you'll drink it's blood and grunt in victory arms raised high above your head.
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  #45  
Old May 18th, 2006, 08:37 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is online now
Mike Rupp
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Posts: 864
beachbum, so anyone who bought a Perazzi for clay pigeons is a jerkoff? You are a wingnut.

Whose quote is that anyways? yours?
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  #46  
Old May 18th, 2006, 09:32 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachBum
You both need to stop talking so much. John has never shot a live target, I'm sorry but that is like wheeling on your computer.


I've never shot a live target? You sure? How do you do know?

I'm quite confident I have shot many more live targets than you have. Not that it's a contest or anything, but I can assure you that I have killed more than my fair share of live targets.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachBum
"Jerking off is spending $5000 on a gun and never using it on a live target"


Lame.
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  #47  
Old May 18th, 2006, 09:34 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachBum
You both need to stop talking so much. John has never shot a live target, I'm sorry but that is like wheeling on your computer.

And Jack, when it comes to dove it seems all you do is wait for them to fly over.

I have friends with ranches also.

"Jerking off is spending $5000 on a gun and never using it on a live target"


that is the most pathetic and transparent trolling I've ever seen on the EE board.

you calling my hunting credentials into question is laughable at best.

nigga please.
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  #48  
Old May 18th, 2006, 09:38 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachBum
Without going through hunter safety, you are putting us all in danger

who exactly is that directed at?
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  #49  
Old May 18th, 2006, 10:16 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeachBum
You both need to stop talking so much. John has never shot a live target, I'm sorry but that is like wheeling on your computer.

And Jack, when it comes to dove it seems all you do is wait for them to fly over.

I have friends with ranches also.

"Jerking off is spending $5000 on a gun and never using it on a live target"


I just saw your pathetic post on dweb you piece of shit loser.
Apparently you're spending quite a bit of time "studying" me and yet I have no fucking clue who the hell you are.
You're all pissed off at me and want to get even for something and I don't even recognize your name.

LOL.
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  #50  
Old May 19th, 2006, 03:57 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Join Date: Sep 2003
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LOL

Hey Paul-Been sampling the amontillado?
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