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  #1  
Old July 25th, 2008, 08:14 PM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
German Drilling Rifle/Shotgun

I now have a Drilling. In the next post will be pictures to show what it looks like. For now, I will describe it in detail.

It is setup as a side by side shotgun with a single rifle. The shotguns are chambered in 16 gauge, wheres the rifle is chambered in 8.6mm.

It has dark woodwork, showing age, with fine checkering on the grip areas.

Curious to me are the few words engraved upon the weapon. Some of which I understand, others which I do not.

Under each shotgun barrel is the word Nitro, which I understand is a proof mark of some sort.

On top of one of the shotgun barrels is written: WAFFEN LOESCHE, MAGDEBURG

On top of the other shotgun barrel is written: HANNOVER - BERLIN

At the base of the barrels each of them has part of some word, partually obscured by the sight mount. On one side, the word: KRUP is visible before it passes under the mount, and on the other barrel emerges: AHL. I understand that Krup may refer to a German steel specification.

I cannot determine just who made the darned thing. I know in the past it was sold for 2400 dollars, but this means nothing, as nobody else knew who made it either. It may be worth far more, or far less.

You will find upon viewing the pictures that the weapon is greatly engraved, to near full coverage on the metal parts, even on surfaces not normally seen. The metal surfaces seem to have what I have heard referred to as a "coin finish".

Interestingly, it is equipped with wide aperture sight grooves for the shotgun, and when one wishes to discharge the rifle instead, he need only push a switch with his thumb on the stock, and a secondary sight in between the barrels flips up with a more narrow aperture. This secondary sight is mounted far up the barrels, and is actuated by a bar passing in between them in a sleeve.

Most drillings I have seen have the break open lever (pardon the lack of terminology) on top of the weapon. This one has a lever surrounding the trigger guard.

I thought some of you might be interested in this, and perhaps someone will know more about it, or perhaps they will know where to look to find more information.

I will post further with more information and pictures.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #2  
Old July 25th, 2008, 08:28 PM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
Here are some pictures I snapped just now. No artsy stuff, just some shots to give someone an idea what it looks like as it sits.

Provided I do not determine that this will be of detriment to the value of the weapon, I intend to completely strip it, clean it up and get things looking nice again.

Cheers,

Kennith
Attached Images
File Type: jpg drilling1.jpg (198.8 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg drilling2.jpg (218.7 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg drilling3.jpg (219.6 KB, 12 views)
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  #3  
Old July 25th, 2008, 08:29 PM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
More pictures.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg drilling4.jpg (275.2 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg drilling5.jpg (233.9 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg drilling6.jpg (292.4 KB, 6 views)
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  #4  
Old July 25th, 2008, 08:30 PM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
And the last shots. I will be taking more soon.

Cheers,

Kennith
Attached Images
File Type: jpg drilling7.jpg (283.8 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg drilling8.jpg (269.3 KB, 9 views)
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  #5  
Old July 25th, 2008, 09:55 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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That looks like an interesting drilling, Kennith. Especially the funky bottom lever.

I'm no expert, but you may be able to tell more by looking at the proofs. Can you find which proof house proofed the drilling? Look on the barrel flats or on the water table area.

Some of the proof houses dated when proofed (i.e Zella-Mehlis would put 4.12 indicating April 1912). I believe the shotgun "Nitro" proof was first started in 1911-1912 depending on proof house.

I believe you are correct regarding the reference to Krupp steel quality. Perhaps the markings are Krupp Laufstahl meaning barrel steel.

Is the secondary site actuated by the small pin/bar(?) I see under the doll's head?

I have only heard of Waffen Loesche as a producer of WWII bayonets and knives. Perhaps they also produced firearms prior to WWII or maybe it is a guild gun produced for Loesche?

More pics of the bottom of the barrels, etc.?

Last edited by greghirst : July 25th, 2008 at 10:51 PM.
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  #6  
Old July 26th, 2008, 03:56 AM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
I'll get more pics here shortly.

I looked some of the proofs up in the gun blue book, and some are there, suggesting they might be from after 1950, but they aren't quite right. They look like the same idea, but some of the lines appear to be different shapes. I really don't know. I would expect that a proof mark should bloody well have the right shape. Some of them appear to be right, and I have read about reproofing for certain drillings, after the war, so I have no idea.

I just don't know about this blue book, it seems a bit off in some areas.

I'll snap some shots of the proof marks if I can.

The secondary sight is operated by actuating the slide lever on top of the strap over the stock, the farthest switch back. It works perfectly.

I suppose we could guess that it may be some sort of project commemorating that company from a later date. I wouldn't put it out of the question just yet.

I'll detail the proof marks when I get back.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #7  
Old July 26th, 2008, 06:48 PM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
Following are details of the proof marks on the weapon.

Markings on rifle barrel:

B1.G. - Stamped at base of the side of the rifle barrel where the barrel meets the housing, in line with the axis of the barrel, and reading from muzzle to stock.
13gr. Stamped directly below the above marking, in line with the axis of the barrel and reading from muzzle to stock.
Crown over V re-stamped Crown over N Stamped directly to the left of the above marking, in line with the axis of the barrel, and reading from muzzle to stock. Originally stamped as V, with an obvious over-stamp of N.
Bird over Crown Over U Oriented vertically in line with the axis of the very bottom of the rifle barrel, slightly muzzle forward of the above markings.
Crown Over G Oriented vertically in line with the axis of the rifle barrel, diagonally muzzle forward of the above marking.
Symbol appearing to be a horizontally mirrored number four followed by the letter S and a period. Stamped muzzle forward of the front grip attachment post, in line with the axis of the rifle barrel, and reading from muzzle to stock.
Partially stamped bird. Appearing to be a bird not completely stamped, oriented vertically in line with the axis of the rifle barrel, horizontally opposed to the Crown over G.
8,6mm over the number 72 Oriented vertically in line with the axis of the rifle barrel, and stamped at the base of said barrel.
NOTES: Several of the stampings appear to have been re-stamped or altered to produce a different stamp, and/or were stamped improperly.

Markings on right shotgun barrel:

Crown over S Oriented vertically in line with the axis of the shotgun barrel, near the base of the barrel.
Bird beside Nitro Oriented horizontally in line with the axis of the barrel, and reading from muzzle to stock.
WAFFEN LOESCHE, MAGDEBURG Written in italic capital letters in line with the axis of the top of the shotgun barrel, reading from muzzle to stock.
TAHL Partial word as it reappears from under the rear mounting post for a supplementary sighting system.

Markings on left shotgun barrel:

Bird beside Nitro Oriented horizontally in line with the axis of the barrel, and reading from muzzle to stock.
HANNOVER BERLIN Written in italic capital letters in line with the axis of the top of the shotgun barrel, reading from muzzle to stock.
KRUP Partial word as it disappears under the rear mounting post for a supplementary sighting system.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #8  
Old July 26th, 2008, 06:53 PM
kennith kennith is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
From information I have managed to gather, two of the marks, being the bullet type/weight mark, as well as bore diameter, appear to place the date of manufacture in the later period between 1912 and 1939.

The original Crown over V appears to place the manufacture before the turn of the century, though. Confusing at best, especially since it was re-stamped with a different letter.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #9  
Old July 27th, 2008, 01:21 AM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Interesting. I think it's fun to check out the proof marks on old firearms.

Could the "horizontally mirrored number four" be an intertwined Z and M? That would indicate the Zella-Mehlis proof house between 1912 and 1939. I've seen that symbol on old Walthers as they had a production plant there prior to WWII.

The crown over letter proof marks definitely indicate it was made prior to 1939 as they were used 1891-1939. Large eagle was used starting in 1940 and Federal eagle after 1952.

According to my "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by Gerhard Wirnsberger:

Crown over N = Nitro proof (started with Proof law of 1912)

(Imperial) Eagle over crown over U = Final Proof (started with Proof law of 1891)

Crown over G = Proof mark for rifled barrels (started proof laws of 1891)

Crown over S = Proof mark for smoothbore barrels (started 1891)

The "partially stamped bird" I'm guessing is an Imperial eagle indicating a preliminary proof of an unfinished barrel (started 1891)

The "Crown over V" is confusing. Supposedly this indicates "Vorratszeichen" or that it was in a dealer's stock at the time the 1891 proof laws became effective. I'm wondering if it is a mistake or perhaps it is actually a "Crown over W" which indicates a choked barrel.

That funky bottom lever is cool.
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  #10  
Old July 27th, 2008, 07:50 AM
kennith kennith is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
That's good information.

I'm pretty sure it is a V that was over-stamped, though. For one thing, this stamp is on the rifle barrel. As well, it is quite legible. It could have been a mistake, but I don't know how often this happened. I would think this would be a bit odd for an organization like this to make a mistake of this... ahem... caliber.

I'll have to look at that backwards four again today. I've found a German firearm club on the net that allows sample information to be submitted for study by it's members, so I'll knock up some info for them to look at.

The bird does look like an eagle. And I am digging the underlever as well. It is not actually as convenient as a top lever, but it is unusual and that makes it cool to me. This is a very interesting firearm, and I can't wait to figure more out about it.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #11  
Old July 27th, 2008, 01:20 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennith
TAHL Partial word as it reappears from under the rear mounting post for a supplementary sighting system.

KRUP Partial word as it disappears under the rear mounting post for a supplementary sighting system.

"KRUPP STAHL"

This is the steel the bbls are forged from.
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  #12  
Old July 27th, 2008, 02:01 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greghirst

I believe you are correct regarding the reference to Krupp steel quality. Perhaps the markings are Krupp Laufstahl meaning barrel steel.

I'm guessing the site mounting covers the "lauf".
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  #13  
Old July 27th, 2008, 06:24 PM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
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Well, so far, even just here we have narrowed quite a few things down. I can't wait to get everything together to send to that club. I find this sort of mystery fun to investigate. There is nothing like the instant gratification you get from assembling various little facts together to produce larger and more important facts. I may never know who made the darned thing, but I'm already getting well on my way to finding out more about it.

Cheers,

Kennith
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