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  #51  
Old June 30th, 2008, 07:35 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
I also like to be fair, Kevin. And I also like to think people can change.

However, this is the same individual that within the last year by his own admission, rolled and totalled his truck and endangered himself and his wife by driving too fast offroad.

Furthermore, he admitted surprise when he rolled as he claimed he had lost control of his truck before (as he stated "all the other times") but had subsequently regained control when he slowed down.

This is also the same individual that admittedly drives in the carpool lane and then argues with the police officer that gives him a ticket. He then posts on the internet asking for advice on how to get out of said ticket and seemed genuinely surprised by the lack of sympathy he received.

This is also the same individual who was one of the most vocal opponents to the much-discussed proposed club policy of eliminating alcohol from trail runs.

In addition, Ho and Aaron have apparent concerns about how he was driving around kids at Pismo. I happen to trust their judgement.

I question the judgement of the club leadership at this point. Perhaps someday I will reconsider joining but not until I feel comfortable with the decisions made especially regarding safety.
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  #52  
Old June 30th, 2008, 08:04 PM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
Greg,

All valid concerns. I just thought it was a cheap shot on my part. I realized that I would feel pretty shitty if my 5 and 7 y/o kids saw me taking a shot at someone like that. I have discussed the alcohol issue till I was blue in the face and it was eventually the straw that broke the camels back in my decision to step down as VP. I have not been on a trip with Joe recently but have not heard any complaints from club members since my stepping down. I am sure I will have issues in the future with the direction the club is taking but I also have the option to step in and make my voice heard or sit back and wait until I feel i want to participate again. My dig at Joe was just poor form and immature on my part. Like I said, all your concerns are valid but I have decided to act in a way that I can feel good about. My views on alcohol on the trail are just as strong as they were a year ago and I will be just as vocal when the need arises. I just need to step back and remove myself from emotional responses and cheap shots and be reasonable and mature about it.
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  #53  
Old June 30th, 2008, 08:53 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
Understood.

BTW-By the time your kids are old enough to have any interest in reading the EE BBS you'll have other concerns to worry about-like the cost of dentures and Depends.
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  #54  
Old June 30th, 2008, 08:59 PM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
I know, but I if I ask my kids to act one way and I act another it's kinda hypocritical. Just trying to do the right thing even if they don't know about it.
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  #55  
Old June 30th, 2008, 09:02 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Why don't you teach your kids to talk shit about assholes and morons?

Then you can do the same without a scintilla of hypocrisy.
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  #56  
Old June 30th, 2008, 09:12 PM
parantaeyang parantaeyang is offline
Won Park
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ventura, California
Posts: 503
I tried doing that. Kate didn't approve. LOL
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  #57  
Old June 30th, 2008, 09:44 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I know, but I if I ask my kids to act one way and I act another it's kinda hypocritical. Just trying to do the right thing even if they don't know about it.

Not sure which hypocrisy you mean, Kevin.

Ignoring or allowing irresponsible behavior and supporting the club?

To me that seems hypocritical.

Why not address that behavior and NOT support it?

That seems more honest to me.
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  #58  
Old June 30th, 2008, 10:51 PM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Why don't you teach your kids to talk shit about assholes and morons?

Then you can do the same without a scintilla of hypocrisy.

John,

I am in contact with assholes and morons everyday at work and talking shit about them or to them accomplishes absolutely nothing. My first 10 years on the job I was a loud mouthed SOB who didn't take shit from anyone. Now that I am older and wiser I realize that behavior helped neither the people I was paid to help and protect or myself. I also realized that it just wasn't worth the effort and it was just wasted breath. It made me feel better for a short time but in the end it just made me a smaller shallow person.

And I will never teach my kids to put other kids down. Can you give me a single reason why this is a good character trait?



Greg,

I have neither been quiet about the behavior nor have I supported it. Remaining a member of the club does not mean I support the issue. In fact by remaining a member I at least have a voice. Every person on the BOD knows exactly what my stance is on alcohol. I don't agree with the current stance and they know it. that is why I stepped down. But I still have a voice and a vote. I thought long and hard about the issue before I paid my dues last month. It would be too easy to sit back at a safe distance as a non club member take jabs at the club. I chose to remain a member and continue to let my concerns be heard. No hypocrisy here Greg.

Besides as I had said earlier there are some quality folks still in the club. Frank B, Paul Von K, Randy Banis, Quentin Kuhl and many more. To be honest there are probably 3-4 that really have an issue with. Besides, I get a bitchen sticker and T shirt
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  #59  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:02 AM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
I don't see it that way.

Yes, there are good people in the club and there will always be morons in any group.

However, when those few morons are allowed by the leadership to lead trails and/or make decisions that potentially affect the safety of participants then I question the judgement of that leadership. Why would I be a member of, or pay dues to, an organization whose leadership I didn't trust if I didn't have to?

I understand your argument that you would like to effect change from within the club. Did that happen last year?

If you recall, I was privy to some of the communication regarding the alcohol/trail run policy. IMHO, your point of view was the only reasonable one presented. You were shut down. You chose to leave your position. That made sense to me. What has changed now? It seems worse to me than ever.

I also remember when a few years ago Quentin Kuhl decided that no alcohol would be allowed on trail runs. I agreed that that was a responsible policy and one that I could support. When that policy changed and it was left up to the trail leader to decide and police the drinking I saw that as a rather lame abdication by the club leadership. I think you saw it that way too.

The coup de grace came for me when I see people who have what I believe is an obvious history of irresponsible behavior allowed by the club to take leadership positions, lead trails, etc.
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  #60  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:31 AM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
I'll continue to speak out against ETOH on the trail either by leaders or participants. I will also exercise my right to not participate in runs that I believe it may be an issue because of the people involved. I also believe that people can change. While I have read post after post about the use of alcohol by Joe and his views on the subject I have not heard anything recently and i received a report from a member who I respect immensely that said Joe did a great job on MJT and drinking was not an issue at any time. I believe people can change. If Joe wants to drink he can do it on his own time but it sounds like he did a good job leading this trip. That is why i felt it was wrong for me to take a cheap shot at him. If there are reports in the future about anyone abusing alcohol on the trail whether I am on the trip or not, I will be the first to peak up because obviously the SCLR policy is not working. I still think the policy is as you say, lame and without teeth. It's easy to take shots at the club from afar. I would rather be in the mix and if it makes me an unpopular person within and outside the club then so be it. I'm an adult and I think I can handle it. I also realize that just about any of SCLR I make will be un popular with the EE crowd and I'm fine with that too. And to be perfectly honest I'm not losing any sleep over any of this crap. It's just a car club.
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  #61  
Old July 1st, 2008, 10:40 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
And I will never teach my kids to put other kids down. Can you give me a single reason why this is a good character trait?


It's calling a spade a spade. You should try it.
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  #62  
Old July 1st, 2008, 11:08 AM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
I can call people out for something I believe in such as the alcohol issue, which I have done. I will teach my kids to stand up for what is right. Where I went wrong was personally attacking Joe. I don't know Joe very well. I have met him a total of two times. I disagree with him and SCLR board of directors on the issue of alcohol on or during a trail run. But to personally attack someone is not calling a spade a spade. It accomplishes absolutely nothing.

I struggle to bite my tongue when issues arise at work or in SCLR policy or at home when it would be easy to call someone a fucking chump or moron. But I don't want to be that kind of person.

I appreciate EE and the great stuff you and Ho sell. Most too pricey for me. But I'm not going to blow smoke up your rear and say I approve of the way you guys attack any one who disagrees with your views. I know there are many who join in or sit quietly during all the bashing because they don't want to fall out of the circle. It doesn't mean it's right. That's just my deal though. If I take a beating for this then I say pour it on.

Like I said before, I disagree with the SCLR policy on alcohol. I have spoken out strongly against it to the BOD. I also believe in second chances and if Joe led a alcohol free trip on MJT then he did a good job and put nobody at risk. I also have the freedom to participate in whatever trips I choose, especially if I think the leader is inadequate or a danger to others. I can also bring this to the attention to the BOD and the trip leader.
I can do all this without acting like a 14 year old.
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  #63  
Old July 1st, 2008, 11:19 AM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
Just to be clear. SCLR issues are of the least of my concerns. I have been a member off and on since 95 and have probably been on a grand total of 7 trips in that time. 99.99% of my trips are with close friends. If the club takes a less structured turn in the future I may participate more. I tend to gravitate toward spur of the moment less structured trips. Not point A to point B type of trips.
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  #64  
Old July 1st, 2008, 11:28 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
But to personally attack someone is not calling a spade a spade.


Wouldn't it depend on what you attack him for? That is, if you attack Joe by pointing out his character flaws or his behavior, isn't that calling a spade a spade?

Your position seems to be that any personal attack is not calling a spade a spade. I could not disagree more.
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  #65  
Old July 1st, 2008, 11:37 AM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I'll continue to speak out against ETOH on the trail either by leaders or participants. I will also exercise my right to not participate in runs that I believe it may be an issue because of the people involved. I also believe that people can change. While I have read post after post about the use of alcohol by Joe and his views on the subject I have not heard anything recently and i received a report from a member who I respect immensely that said Joe did a great job on MJT and drinking was not an issue at any time. I believe people can change. If Joe wants to drink he can do it on his own time but it sounds like he did a good job leading this trip. That is why i felt it was wrong for me to take a cheap shot at him. If there are reports in the future about anyone abusing alcohol on the trail whether I am on the trip or not, I will be the first to peak up because obviously the SCLR policy is not working. I still think the policy is as you say, lame and without teeth. It's easy to take shots at the club from afar. I would rather be in the mix and if it makes me an unpopular person within and outside the club then so be it. I'm an adult and I think I can handle it. I also realize that just about any of SCLR I make will be un popular with the EE crowd and I'm fine with that too. And to be perfectly honest I'm not losing any sleep over any of this crap. It's just a car club.

I guess I'm a bit more skeptical about change.

Just because a particular trail run went well does not indicate to me that a change of attitude or safety awareness has occurred.

I'm much more willing to believe a change of attitude when I hear someone decry their previous behavior.

Not sure what you mean by "EE crowd" vs. "SCLR" and "popularity". I prefer to wheel with people whose judgement I trust. I would include you, Paul VKD, and many others in that group. That doesn't mean I agree with all the opinions of the people I choose to wheel with. I'm quite positive some of my opinions are rather "unpopular".
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  #66  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:04 PM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Wouldn't it depend on what you attack him for? That is, if you attack Joe by pointing out his character flaws or his behavior, isn't that calling a spade a spade?

Your position seems to be that any personal attack is not calling a spade a spade. I could not disagree more.

My making fun of the fact that Joe is leading the Pismo trip was unfair to Joe. It was Pismo after all that was genesis for the whole ETOH discussion. It just snowballed after that and for good reason. According to participants in the MJT trip Joe showed maturity and good judgement. Cant he be commended for that? I was slamming him for a trip he hadn't even led yet. I would rather stick with the facts as they are now. If someone had come forward and said there was an issue with drinking on the trail I would have been all over the BOD telling them that their policy is not working. I still disagree with the policy though I think it has been hammered home and if a leader allows drinking on the trail now then I believe that member should be booted.

And John, there is a difference in a personal disagreement and a personal attack.
As an example. I think my Engel Fridge is better than Kevin's Igloo cooler. And her are the reasons why.... Or, Did you you see that fucking chump Kevin with the Igloo? What a white trash tool. BTW I'll never take offense to being called WT.
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  #67  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:17 PM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
I'm no cheerleader for Joe. I just wanted to make an apology for what I thought was poor form. Your right, one trip does not make a changed man but at least he seems to be trying. This is from Joes TR.

"I want to add here that since people complained about me in the past, and I have been doing more to prove that my attitude DOESNT speak volumes of my actions. I will be looking into some volunteer work at Piru. I was disappointed to see two of the jeeps Drive right past a clearly marked "no motorized vehicles" stake and drive up the creek. Only to be followed shortly after by a jeep buggy using a tree as an articulation ramp."


I also wheel with people I trust and many who I just plain get along with who have little experience but who trust me.

I am not referring to an EE vs. SCLR crowd. I was referring to a lot of bashing that goes on toward people who have different opinions. Some join in and some sit quiet. Sometimes sitting quietly is the safest thing to do because you dont want to rock the boat by disagreeing. I know there are some on this board who dont agree with the bashing but join in anyway, it's human nature. People want to feel accepted.




Quote:
Originally Posted by greghirst
I guess I'm a bit more skeptical about change.

Just because a particular trail run went well does not indicate to me that a change of attitude or safety awareness has occurred.

I'm much more willing to believe a change of attitude when I hear someone decry their previous behavior.

Not sure what you mean by "EE crowd" vs. "SCLR" and "popularity". I prefer to wheel with people whose judgement I trust. I would include you, Paul VKD, and many others in that group. That doesn't mean I agree with all the opinions of the people I choose to wheel with. I'm quite positive some of my opinions are rather "unpopular".
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  #68  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:29 PM
Matt Kendrick Matt Kendrick is offline
Matt Kendrick
KI6CGL
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
..... and if a leader allows drinking on the trail now then I believe that member should be booted.

well, given the current policy, that's obviously not going to happen.

doesn't that cut straight to the problem? letting people that have a more than questionable track record lead trips? then allowing them to be the deciding factor in regards to a "dry" run or a "non-dry" run?

i still find it hard to believe that the club took this stance.
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  #69  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:49 PM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
I'm right there with you Matt. I am astonished that the club took that stance also. It seemed a no brainer.

I also believe in second chances or at least giving someone a chance to redeem him or her self.

I decided to remain a club member because of the people I know and respect that are remaining club members. Such as Randy, Paul, Frank, Quentin, Bill and several others. I can t make changes from the outside. I have no voice from the outside. I think the club can get past all this.

I also think that there are two types of members. One wants to soak up in the green that is Land Rover and immerse themselves in all that is Land Rover. The other just wants to get out there and wheel and explore. The vehicle is just a means to get to the destination. I tend to see myself in the later group. When I see trips that fall into that category I may jump in. Or when I feel up to it I may even lead a trip. As trip leader I guess I have the choice to allow non members or prospective members, if any of you don't mind going on a trip with an outcast I would be happy to talk about all this crap out on the trail.
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  #70  
Old July 1st, 2008, 12:52 PM
Bruno Bruno is offline
Bruno Tome
N8YQ
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 921
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I was slamming him for a trip he hadn't even led yet.

I didn't read it that way, Kevin. I read your statement as an expression of distrust in the person. People are judged by their actions, respect is earned and bad reputations are difficult to overcome.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I would rather stick with the facts as they are now.

Unless you feel that your opinion of this person was not well founded, the facts now are that this person has allegedly led one successful outing. Although commendable, that wouldn't be enough to change my mind about someone.
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  #71  
Old July 1st, 2008, 01:02 PM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
I believe in second chances. I have been given more than a few chances in my life after making boneheaded decisions and I am grateful to those individuals. Aside from that I just don't want to stoop to that level. If Joe does something to lose trust again i wont be the only person to be disappointed.

I guess this year has caused me to do a lot of self reflecting and I want to be a better person than I have been in the past.
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  #72  
Old July 1st, 2008, 09:47 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I'm no cheerleader for Joe. I just wanted to make an apology for what I thought was poor form. Your right, one trip does not make a changed man but at least he seems to be trying. This is from Joes TR.

"I want to add here that since people complained about me in the past, and I have been doing more to prove that my attitude DOESNT speak volumes of my actions. I will be looking into some volunteer work at Piru. I was disappointed to see two of the jeeps Drive right past a clearly marked "no motorized vehicles" stake and drive up the creek. Only to be followed shortly after by a jeep buggy using a tree as an articulation ramp."

IMO you have nothing to apologize for.

Only time will tell if there has been a change in behavior.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I am not referring to an EE vs. SCLR crowd. I was referring to a lot of bashing that goes on toward people who have different opinions. Some join in and some sit quiet. Sometimes sitting quietly is the safest thing to do because you dont want to rock the boat by disagreeing. I know there are some on this board who dont agree with the bashing but join in anyway, it's human nature. People want to feel accepted.

Again, I don't see it that way.

I am aware of plenty of disagreements both on and off this board between people who routinely post here. If you frequented this board over the last several years and actually followed the rather bizarre off-topic and schizophrenic threads you would see this. Just read this thread from the beginning and you will see differing viewpoints. It's normal to react to someone's name-calling and foul language but generally I find it pointless (albeit entertaining).

IIRC Jack Quinlan and John Lee had some pretty nasty arguments before they even met. There has been a few afterwards as well.

The first time I met John, he apologized if he had happened to slam me on Dweb. I think my response was "Not yet!" lol

I don't know of anyone besides Jack that agreed with his decision to attend RR7 but not register for it. That wasn't appropriate IMHO.

I could go on and on.

Despite the differences, I believe there is generally a mutual level of respect and trust between most people on this BBS. That respect can be both earned and lost.

Joe has a long way to go.

Last edited by greghirst : July 1st, 2008 at 09:57 PM.
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  #73  
Old July 1st, 2008, 10:38 PM
hochung hochung is offline
Ho Chung
W6HC
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
Posts: 2,006
Just a few comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I can call people out for something I believe in such as the alcohol issue, which I have done.

I called people out on the "kicking sand over children by doing donuts around the campsite" issue. I wish SCLR had a policy on that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
It accomplishes absolutely nothing.
You'd be surprised how effective social pressure can be. In fact, I bet Joe's behavior "changed" because of the noise we've made. Aaron and I wanted Joe out of the club.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I struggle to bite my tongue when issues arise at work or in SCLR policy or at home when it would be easy to call someone a fucking chump or moron. But I don't want to be that kind of person.

If this someone is a chump or a moron, why not call them what they are? maybe their "behavior might change" and lead us all to a better place to live?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I know there are many who join in or sit quietly during all the bashing because they don't want to fall out of the circle.
You have no idea. Many have come and gone even without trying hard... they've "fallen out of the circle."



Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe
I also believe in second chances and if Joe led a alcohol free trip on MJT then he did a good job and put nobody at risk.
yeah, no shit, big fucking accomplishment. what is this? SCLR rehab program?
____________________
Ho Chung

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  #74  
Old July 1st, 2008, 10:44 PM
kellymoe kellymoe is offline
Kevin Mokracek
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by greghirst

The first time I met John, he apologized if he had happened to slam me on Dweb. I think my response was "Not yet!" lol

I don't know of anyone besides Jack that agreed with his decision to attend RR7 but not register for it. That wasn't appropriate IMHO.


I personally didn't see what the big deal was with Jack being at RR7. He didn't participate in the trail runs, he was camping in a privately owned campground and he didn't attend any functions. I did however find it a little odd that he and his buddy cooked breakfast wearing Camelbacks hydration backpacks. I guess I never realised how strenuous cooking can be.

I got a ear full from other SCLR members demanding that I "do something" about Jack being there. He had every right to be there as a private camper IMO. Just like the guy camped off in the corner who was riding his bike across Death Valley.
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  #75  
Old July 1st, 2008, 11:42 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellymoe

I got a ear full from other SCLR members demanding that I "do something" about Jack being there. He had every right to be there as a private camper IMO. Just like the guy camped off in the corner who was riding his bike across Death Valley.


OK, now I know of one person besides Jack-LOL

You are right, though. Jack could camp anywhere he wanted.
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