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  #1  
Old May 17th, 2004, 09:23 PM
david david is offline
David Woo
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 122
El Launcho

OK, so this weekend was my yearly Suarez Intl tactical tune-up up at Angeles. It was a small group, all experienced students and the pace was fast.

My problem: on the second day I was using the P7, to get some practical experience under stress. During some weapon manipulation evolutions, we performed malfunction clearing exercises, Class 1, 2 and 3. During the class 1 exercise (failure to fire, round in the chamber, full mag), the routine is tap rack flip. I tapped, racked/flip and when I let loose of the slide, the slide disengaged from the pistol and launched itself about six feet away into the dirt. Oh, fuck, not good.

I retrieved the slide, knocked the dirt from it and slid it back onto the pistol. Try it again, the SAME thing happened! Put the slide back on, racked it several times, seems to work. It was suggested that I retrieve my usp and get my ass back into class, so the P7 went into the range bag. The instructor noted that he has seen this with P7's numerous times.

Why/how did this happen? I know I did not touch the release button during the exercise. I cleaned the gun tonight and tried to replicate the malfunction, but no luck.

The final exam: 2 1/2" circle, seven yards, 5 rounds, from the holster, all five in the circle or we go again. Took three tries and finally success. One bugger got four rounds thru one hole, sweet shooting.

DW
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  #2  
Old May 18th, 2004, 06:39 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Congrats on getting through your tune-up! I'm sure John will have some opinions as what happened with the P7.
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  #3  
Old May 18th, 2004, 09:24 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Re: El Launcho

Quote:
Originally posted by david
Why/how did this happen? I know I did not touch the release button during the exercise. I cleaned the gun tonight and tried to replicate the malfunction, but no luck.


This is actually common on the P7. The P7's disassembly button protrudes enough that you can depress it during immediate action drills. You may not think you touched the button, but I'm guessing you did when you gripped the slide to rack it.

Here's the button:

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/ho...8/DSC09078.jpg

The button is about flush with the edge of the slide, but the button protrudes considerably from the receiver.

The solution is a simple one. Just grind disassembly button down down flush, just enough so that the raised portion of the button is eliminated. Take a look at this pic:

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/ho...8/DSC09079.jpg

Grind off the raised portion of the disassembly button so that the button is flush with the receiver. Many savvy P7 owners do this. El Launcho will not happen again.

Some may consider this gun butchery but I disagree. Even if you change your mind or decide to sell the pistol, it is a simple matter to buy another disassembly button and fit it. By grinding down the disassembly button, you're not doing anything irreparable to the pistol.

Another reason to grind down the disassembly button is that the button interfers with the high-thumb hold. The button digs into the web of the hand during recoil if you shoot with a high thumb.

With the button ground flush, you can still disassemble the pistol without tools, as you can still depress the button with your finger. It's just not a big deal to do this mod.

Highly recommended.
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  #4  
Old May 18th, 2004, 12:44 PM
hochung hochung is offline
Ho Chung
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david, don't do a thing to your P7.
just dump it in the trash bin here at the shop.
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  #5  
Old May 18th, 2004, 02:14 PM
curtis
 
Posts: n/a
Ho has a good point, but please do not throw the gun in EE's bucket. Some poor gangsta might run accross it and do horrendous crimes.

Instead, please email me offline and I will give you an address in Utah that specializes in P7 disposal. Do the right thing - send the gun to them
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  #6  
Old May 18th, 2004, 03:27 PM
hochung hochung is offline
Ho Chung
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hehe, curtis, stick to glocks. they are better. LOL

i mean, USPs.
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  #7  
Old May 18th, 2004, 05:00 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Hey, hey! Watch what you say about glocks!!!
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  #8  
Old May 18th, 2004, 05:05 PM
hochung hochung is offline
Ho Chung
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got barbie?
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  #9  
Old May 18th, 2004, 07:08 PM
david david is offline
David Woo
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Santa Monica, CA
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finally got home

The network at work crashed: how the hell do they expect me to waste time surfing the net if the damn connection doesn't work, geez...

Anyway, cool, John, that's why that's done. I have seen one modded that way. That is the logical reason for the slide launching itself into space. Maybe I'll look for a spare button and grind it down and swap it into the pistol.

The 1911 guys gave me some shit, but they should talk: one of them spent a great deal of time trying to get his kimbers and springfields to feed any rounds at all. He said afterwards that his springfield would be for sale.

I think we can find a 3" barrel springfield for that trash bin, Ho.
DW
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  #10  
Old May 18th, 2004, 08:11 PM
hochung hochung is offline
Ho Chung
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hehe, i'll pass, send the springfield thing to utah.
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  #11  
Old May 18th, 2004, 08:28 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Re: finally got home

Quote:
Originally posted by david
Maybe I'll look for a spare button and grind it down and swap it into the pistol.


The spare buttons are everywhere; it's not a problem at all finding them. I can't remember the part number, but the parts diagram is in your P7M8 instruction booklet. Any authorized HK dealer should be able to order it for you. You might try Retting's or that parts dealer that HKPRO is associated with.

Quote:
Originally posted by david
The 1911 guys gave me some shit, but they should talk: one of them spent a great deal of time trying to get his kimbers and springfields to feed any rounds at all. He said afterwards that his springfield would be for sale. I think we can find a 3" barrel springfield for that trash bin, Ho.


The 1911 also suffers from an immediate action drill weakness. The shank for the slide stop protrudes out of the right side of the weapon. It's actually fairly easily to depress this with the trigger finger during an immediate action drill (you do all of your immediate action drills with your trigger finger outside the trigger guard, don't you?) and push out the slide stop as the slide reciprocates. That's why many 1911 owners grind the tip of the slide stop flush with the receiver. Also, that's why newer pistols like the USP have flush-mounted slide stop pins. It's actually a common problem.

These 1911 guys always love to laugh when a non-1911 pistol craps out. But I always seem to see more 1911's crap out than other quality pistol designs. The custom 1911's are no better. In fact, the more they are customized, the more they seem to malfunction. A lot like Rovers in that way.


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  #12  
Old May 18th, 2004, 11:58 PM
curtis
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by hochung
hehe, i'll pass, send the springfield thing to utah.


Sorry Ho, but the Utah outfit only disposes (and maybe recycles)quality weapons. I conferred with the guy in charge and he said that he does not even suggest turning anything from Springfiled Armory into anything but raw iron ore. That gentleman who bought the POS should contact the local steel mill for the local raw iron rate.

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  #13  
Old May 19th, 2004, 07:56 AM
david david is offline
David Woo
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 122
the button mod

Looking at your photos, I wonder if evenly grinding the sides of the button to produce a domed button would be good? You could still depress the center domed section of the button, which would still contain the checkering.

Maybe I better find a couple of buttons and experiment a bit.
I knew there was a reason I need a milling machine for the garage.
DW
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  #14  
Old May 19th, 2004, 09:03 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
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Location: Torrance, CA
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Re: the button mod

Quote:
Originally posted by david
Looking at your photos, I wonder if evenly grinding the sides of the button to produce a domed button would be good? You could still depress the center domed section of the button, which would still contain the checkering.


Yuck. Not only would that be hideous, but it might even make things worse. A domed button is very easy to depress.

If you want to maintain as much of a factory look as possible while minimizing the chance of an inadvertent disassembly, you might try the following:

(1) grind the face of the button down so that the button keeps a flat face but only barely protrudes from the receiver;
(2) grind that little bevel cut at the back of the button to maintain the factory look;
(3) lightly checker the button;
(4) take some sandpaper and round the edges of the button and the checkering so as not to abrade your hand while shooting; and
(5) give the button a matte blue finish and reinstall.

If you do a fine job, only the P7 aficionado will know that you modded the pistol at all.
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  #15  
Old May 19th, 2004, 10:44 AM
david david is offline
David Woo
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 122
button mod

It sounds like a stock button, just lower profile. Definitely need that milling machine now.

On another note, I have tried Hoppe's and Sweet's to clean pistol bores, and I never seen to be able to get all the fouling out of the grooves. Is there another product that works better?

I've been wearing out my nylon brushes scrubbing away, but there is always a little bit of grunge down there. Maybe it's impossible to get it totally clean?
DW
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  #16  
Old May 19th, 2004, 11:04 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Re: button mod

Quote:
Originally posted by david
It sounds like a stock button, just lower profile. Definitely need that milling machine now.


You can do it by hand as well. If you're careful it will turn out perfect, even by hand. Probably the worst part about a home job is that you can't hot blue the button. Places like Brownell's sell all different kinds of cold blue solutions, but the results are not as nice as the hot blue jobs.

Quote:
Originally posted by david
I have tried Hoppe's and Sweet's to clean pistol bores, and I never seen to be able to get all the fouling out of the grooves. Is there another product that works better?


Hoppe's is shit. It doesn't work well at all.

For the Sweet's, are you talking about Sweet's Copper Remover? If so, I wouldn't use this stuff either. It'll etch the bore.

My favorite bore cleaner is Montana Extreme. Sinclair International sells it. It cleans very aggressively and stinks to high heaven but it's safe to soak bores in it.

Butch's Bore Shine is also an excellent bore cleaner. Butch's is also safe to use for soaking bores.

The best bore cleaner I have ever used by far is RB-17. It's a gel that cleans so much better than anything else that it's just amazing. It dissolves copper fouling in rifle barrels better than dedicated copper solvents like Sweets. The reason I'm hesitant to recommend RB-17 to you is because it's not safe to soak barrels in it. You'll have an etched barrel after a few hours of soaking. On a weapon like a P7, which has a gas port just forward of the chamber and a fluted chamber, it's very easy to leave some RB-17 in there. If you do, you just ruined your beautiful hammer forged German Krupp steel polygonal sculpture.

I would try the Montana Extreme. It works very well and should be more than enough to clean your bores.

Quote:
Originally posted by david
I've been wearing out my nylon brushes scrubbing away, but there is always a little bit of grunge down there. Maybe it's impossible to get it totally clean?
DW


Nylon brushes are also bad. Not only do they not clean as well as bronze brushes, many believe that nylon bristles are actually more abrasive to the steel than bronze brushes are.

I recommend the bronze benchrest brushes that Sinclair International sells. Don't bother with the pistol brushes. Get the RIFLE brushes. Your 9mm bores are .355" in diameter. Many rifle bores are .358" in diameter and there are rifle brushes made in that diameter. The advantage of a rifle brush is that the brush is longer and scrubs that much more with each swipe.

You'll also see that there is no steel in the Sinclair benchrest brushes. Cheap shit brushes might have bronze bristles but they have steel shanks. Not good. Go with the good stuff.

With good bronze bristles and a good bore cleaner, your bores should be sparkling clean. As in mirror polished perfect tip top condition clean. HK bores are hammer forged and show absolutely no machining marks or smears, at least to the naked eye. So they make it very easy to tell if the bore is dirty or clean.

For cleaning rods, my favorites are the ones from Bore Tech and Dewey, with the edge going to Bore Tech because of its superior bearing within the handle. But Bore Tech doesn't make coated pistol rods, so Dewey is the only choice. Even then, I think the shortest Dewey is like 14" long.

Don't use aluminum, steel, or brass cleaning rods. They're shit.
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  #17  
Old May 19th, 2004, 11:38 AM
david david is offline
David Woo
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Santa Monica, CA
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Thanks for the info, John. BTW, last time I was at Kings, they said that they run their bluing tank maybe once a month, if they have enough orders to justify it.

Yep, the Sweet's copper cleaner: I've heard about the etching problem, but never let it sit for more than 10 min. I thought maybe that was the problem, since I've heard of soaking overnight, but didn't want to do that with my guns.

I'll look for the Montana stuff: I'm out of nylon brushes anyway.
DW
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  #18  
Old May 19th, 2004, 11:41 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Quote:
Originally posted by david
Yep, the Sweet's copper cleaner: I've heard about the etching problem, but never let it sit for more than 10 min. I thought maybe that was the problem, since I've heard of soaking overnight, but didn't want to do that with my guns.


I have never understood the idea that it's all right to soak a barrel in Sweets for 10 minutes but not for an hour.

If you clean your barrel six times and soak the barrel for 10 minutes each time, isn't the effect on the barrel's surface the same as soaking the barrel for an hour? Or am I missing something?
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  #19  
Old May 19th, 2004, 12:05 PM
david david is offline
David Woo
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Santa Monica, CA
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Isn't the concept that a shorter duration soak on occasion should clean the layer of fouling, and not have sufficient time to attack the bore material itself? I assume that the layer of lead and copper is both on the lands and grooves.

It would seem that a long duration soak would attack the fouling, then continue further and etch the bore. Or maybe we're both smoking something...
DW
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  #20  
Old May 19th, 2004, 12:39 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Location: Torrance, CA
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Hmmm, that's probably the theory. Perhaps the idea is that the ammonia will melt the copper and and also become less potent in the process.

I prefer to stick to cleaners like Montana Extreme and Butch's. I still have a bottle of RB-17 for very stubborn deposits but I don't like using RB-17 because it has to be removed completely or it will leave noticeable pits in the barrel or chamber. Ask me how I know.
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  #21  
Old May 19th, 2004, 03:14 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I was just thinking about the copper solvent thing, and come to think of it, it makes perfect sense that it can be applied to steel for short periods without harming it, yet harm the steel if left on for long periods.

Water does the same thing. It's perfectly safe to clean a gun with water. In fact, in the days of black power and the early days of smokeless propellants when potassium chrlorate priming was the norm, it was commonplace to clean guns with hot water. So long as the water is not left on the gun for several hours, no rust is formed and there is no damage to the steel.

I still won't use Sweet's though. It doesn't work for shit. I much prefer RB-17 with a bronze brush. This removes more copper fouling (and carbon, lead, and other junk that Sweet's won't remove at all) better than Sweets does. RB-17 also doesn't melt your nasal passages if you get a whiff of it the way that Sweets will, especially indoors.
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  #22  
Old May 20th, 2004, 08:05 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 864
How many rounds do you guys shoot between cleanings? With my rifles (308Win, 220 Swift, 338 Win Mag) I clean after every 10 shots. I've never had to use anything aggressive like Sweets. I imagine that with a pistol you're probably shooting 100 rounds plus and then cleaning at home. If you could carry a small cleaning kit to the range you might be able to keep the barrel cleaner along the way.

My cleaning process is: 2 wet patches using Butches Bore Shine, 10 passes with a bronze brush, 1 wet patch to clean out the junk and 2 dry patches to dry out the barrel. If it's at the end of the day I'll follow it up with a patch of oil. Another tip I learned from a benchrest shooter is to use 2/3 Butches and 1/3 Kroil. It does work pretty well.

Sinclair is the place! They are like the EE of target shooting. They only sell stuff that they use or make stuff that's better than what's on the market already. I was pissed when I bought a benchrest from them and then they came out with a Sinclair benchrest a month later. The new one is beautiful.
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  #23  
Old May 20th, 2004, 08:43 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
For rifles I usually go 50 shots between cleanings if I shoot that much at the range. But I'm shooting .223 and .308. Nothing hardcore like a .220 Swift. Also, my guns are all "service" type guns and not super accurate varminters or benchrest guns. So I clean them accordingly.

I always clean a rifle at the end of the day, even if I shot only a handful of rounds through it. I enjoy shooting more than cleaning, so cleaning every 10 or 20 shots would ruin the experience for me.

The three bore cleaners I use the most are Montana Extreme, Butch's Bore Shine, and RB-17. I think Montana and RB-17 work better than Butch's, but they are harder to use for swabbing out bores. Montana is very "squeaky" when sliding a saturated patch through the bore while Butch's seems to have lubricant in it and it slides through the bores much more easily. RB-17 is a gel and not suitable for swabbing bores at all (But it's a truly awesome cleaner when used with a bronze brush on stubborn deposits. Bores that I thought were clean showed themselves to be very dirty after a cleaning with RB-17.) The newer bore cleaners like Butch's are so effective that swabbing alone removes most of the deposits in the barrel anyway, so I think the swabability of Butch's makes it the best choice as a general-purpose bore cleaner for standard deposits and for most folks.

My standard rifle cleaning techique is:

(1) saturated cotton patch through the dirty bore and let it soak
(2) dry patch through the bore to mop up the gunk
(3) saturated bronze brush through the dirty bore for about 10 strokes and let it soak
(4) dry cotton patch through the bore
(5) check for cleanliness (usually clean)
(6) run a patch lightly coated with MILITEC-1 through the bore
(7) run dry patch through bore and swab out chamber

Thank you for the compliment on the Sinclair Comparison. If EE could be the Sinclair of the offroad world, that would be kick ass. Sinclair is just awesome.
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  #24  
Old May 20th, 2004, 09:32 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 864
220 Swift isn't really hardcore. The round has been around for ever. It is kind of wierd to shoot. The first time I shot it, everything was fine - nice tight groups. After a while, I couldn't figure what was going on. My groups were opening up to about 2" at 100 yards and kept getting worse. I was starting to wonder if I was losing it. I thought my scope was possibly loose so I grabbed the scope and my wrist touched the barrel. It was scalding hot. I mean burn your hands hot.

Keep in mind that this is a bolt action rifle that I don't shoot quickly. I load each round by hand & it takes some time to get an 18X scope to settle down. Now I wait about 90 seconds between shots to keep things accurate. I thought the rifle would be the cat's ass, but I'd rather bring the 308 Win to the range. It's just as accurate at 100-200 yards and much more forgiving. I can shoot as quickly as I can cycle the bolt and the barrel won't get hot.

I haven't tried Montana, but you might want to try adding a little Kroil to make it smoother. It works well with Butches or Shooters Choice.

I haven't tried RB-17. On my 308 Win, I didn't really break it in properly and it was quite nasty. Butches didn't do the job. I used USP bore paste. That's some good stuff!
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  #25  
Old May 20th, 2004, 10:18 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
The .220 Swift is known to be a finicky cartridge. Perhaps it's the semi-rimmed construction and lack of good headspacing, but that wouldn't really matter if you handload your Swift rounds. Maybe your barrel is dirty or shot out?

The next time you order from Sinclair, order a bottle of RB-17. It's cheap. RB-17 will clean barrels that you thought were clean. Say you have a barrel that you clean every 10 shots. The barrel should be clean, right? You look down the barrel and it looks clean. Soak a bronze brush with RB and run it through the bore 10 or 20 times. Mop out the barrel and take a look. Make sure you're wearing some Depends because you will shit when you see how much cleaner the barrel is than it was before. The barrel is so much more sparkling than it was before. You can tell just by looking at it.

On heavily copper-fouled barrels, I have found RB-17 with a bronze brush works so much better than Sweet's, Shooter's Choice, or any other dedicated copper dissolver that I have tried. RB-17 is just amazing. And it's just as amazing on carbon fouling and shotgun plastic wad fouling.

I haven't tried Kroil yet. Gotta try that someday. I'm so happy with MILITEC-1 that I haven't tried Kroil. One of my shooting buddies just bought a tin of Kroil, so the next time I go shooting I'll try some Kroil action.

I have the USP bore paste and like it. I like it much more than the JB Bore Cleaner and Iosso Bore Cleaner. I haven't tried the new JB Bore Brite though. I really don't use these abrasive cleaners that much any more though since I discovered RB-17. RB-17 really does clean that well.
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