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  #51  
Old August 7th, 2007, 10:16 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by expeditionswest
Jack,

Great picture of a Model 12 still in use. I have my grandfather's 12 and 16 bore.

While I have several modern shotguns, I still appreciate/prefer shooting the model 12. Just looking at the metal wear (from use) makes me smile, worn through the years by Bradys before me.

Here is a shot of a few of my older guns during my last trap shoot. An old Model 12, 12 bore and a Remington 29.



Awesome.

Is the Model 12 16 bore a true 16 or does it use the receiver from a 12?
I've seen a few and it looked like they had specific proportions, but I'm not sure.

Model 12 love:




I've come to appreciate the model 12 for a number of reasons. In many ways a well made machined American pump is like a nicely made American revolver. The quality and peformance is obvious at first touch. The guns are functional and they are made to last. Furthermore, as John has pointed out, the designs have largely devolved over the last century and the manufacturers produce worse guns than ever. So many shortcuts have produced sloppy expendable weapons that while serviceable, provide a distant second to the experience of shooting their progenitors.

Go try to buy a take-down pump today.
They don't exist. The modern concept of the pump is directly contrary to the mindset which would produce a take-down design.

Today a pump is inherently a budget enterprise. It's by large the cheapest variant of shotgun available for purchase so the manufacturers seem to compete to produce the lowest cost option available. That's a far cry from the day of the Model 12. At it's introduction the Model 12 was the pinnacle of shotgun technology. It was designed to be the best option and it was manufactured accordingly. It represented a significant improvement over it's predecessor the 1897 but rather than just being a penultimate iteration of the ultimate evolution it was the peak.

I also like the Model 12 because you have to get it.
The vast majority will look down on it because it's a pump repeater.
Let them.

Finally I appreciate the Model 12 because I shoot it well.
That always makes for a satisfying experience.



More and more I've been drawn to the shotguns which marked the heyday of American sporting tradition.
For me, like many others, my early interest in shotguns and fieldsports very naturally gravitated towards the English and Continental traditions. Because for most, including myself, the early 20th century London guns represent truly the best of the best. Shotgunning culture will forever center on the London makers. Their shotguns have an excalibur-like quality about them which makes them so much fun to talk about, dream of and (I assume) to own. I think it's easy for many, like myself, to lump in British sporting customs with the love for these shotguns and the houses that produce them.

I certainly like the style elements of both driven and rough shooting in England and elsewhere in Europe. Cartridge belts, shell bags, surrey caps, breeks, wellingtons, tweed shooting jackets, Barbour coats. These are all very cool. If you live in the northeastern US it's very easy to work a Barbour coat into your daily wardrobe. I did for a long time. Maybe even a surrey cap.

But then it times time to actually go hunting. At home, here in the US. Now if you fly to the UK to particpate in an estate shoot, by all means, dress the part. But when you are going to step out into the grouse woods in Maine, a piney wood in Georgia, a scree slope of shale in Montana, a rolling prarie in South Dakota, a rice field in Louisiana, a snowy pond in Minnesota, a cactus slope in Arizona, a snipe bog in Florida or sage brush in California are you really going to break out the plus-fours and a tie? Why? What would you be celebrating? The reality is that you would be elevating a sporting tradition which is VASTLY inferior to our own.
The English and their continental compatriots celebrate far more limited, far less diverse, far less challenging sporting endeavors than Americans. Driven pheasant, rough grouse, red-legged partridge shoots. These are all interesting, but limited options. In the US we hunt a myriad of birds in far more varied techniques and traditions with a wider variety of guns and dogs in every possible locale.
Our love of the English shotgun has foolishly led us to worship English sport.
I do think the English shotgun has a place in American hunting but what it offers in quality it lacks in genetic tradition.
Many are drawn even to the small scale English sporting tradtion because it is elite. In the egalitarian American diaspora all sorts have participated in wingshooting. In England only the wealthy. English wingshooting is defined by a narrow custom which presents a very polished image. It's appealing. But there are also appealing images in the American tradition. Not every American hunter has been a slob. Not every well kept sportsman in the US has been rich either.
What is appealing to me about images such as these:








Is that they are both asthetically pleasing and I have a real connection to them.
They harken an earlier, possibly superior era of American fieldsport from which my outings are directly ascended. If I'm going to try to evoke a hunting tradition, shouldn't it have something to do with where and what I'm hunting?
The clothes and equipment of the early 20th century American birdhunter are very functional and durable as well as good looking. They are indigenous and mix well with the American landscape. Tweed shooting jackets do not.
Once I began to shed some of my earlier anglophile trappings I also began to embrace the American sporting arms traditions. I began to realize that there are many American shotguns which have not only proven themselves afield here in the US, but which are also quite appealing. The Model 12 is one of these.


As is the Browning A-5.


These guns are very American. Not just because of their origins, but because they are repeaters. The repeater is very much an American institution. But that does not mean that American shotgunning tradtion is devoid of good doubles. As I have often argued for upland bird hunting the side by side double has little equal for functionality. I can imagine hunting quail with little else.

I use to think this was the shotgun that I was destined to own:

The Westley Richards round action drop lock

But now I wonder...
The drop lock is beautiful and functional, but might there not also be American shotguns that are equally striking and well-crafted?

There are.

AH Fox

Ithaca

Parker

I find myself drawn to these guns more and more and thinking of Westley Richards less and less.
I think this is very natural.


I won't be ignoring what the rest of the world has to offer me anytime soon.
But I won't be ignoring what's right here at home again either.
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  #52  
Old August 7th, 2007, 10:47 AM
Scott Brady Scott Brady is offline
Scott Brady
KE7PNP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 267
Regarding the 16 bore, I am not sure of the receiver, and have actually used that gun very little.

I am happy with how I shoot the Model 12 as well.

My schedule for the Fall is more open, which will allow for several wingshooting trips and afternoons at the Trap and Skeet Club. Let me know if your travels bring you to Arizona.

I have a few new additions that need some range time, including a Newport 12 bore side-by-side, Remington model 11-87 sporting clays, Beretta over-and-under, etc. We have a 5 stand sporting clays that should be fun.

Oh, and I like the Parker guns as well.
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  #53  
Old August 7th, 2007, 10:50 AM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
KJ4BXR
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,116
Have I ever purchased "good" shoes, or expensive shoes?

I've owned several pairs of boots for hunting; GA Boot, Rocky and Danner. Right now I have a pair of Rocky boots. They're fairly cheap and have lasted me now 6-years (this will be year 7). I *think* they're only something like 400gram boots, too. I sometimes wear them fishing, but they mainly get used during deer and turkey season. Where I hunt is about a 1:45 walk in; after you've done it 3 or 4 times in a year, you can get it down to 1:20. I walk in through an old fire line that's basically right up the side of the MTN. Not only is it right up the side of the MTN, it has water channels cut into it, so at time you're climbing a vertical path. I don't care what you may think, it's hard on boots. The GA Boots had the buckle/eyelets bust off after only being 2-years old and the Danners lasted 2-years and the soles came loose. Funny how a $120.00 pair of boots out last the more expensive ones, huh.....

Once I within about 300-yards of where I'm going to hunt, I change my t-shirt and socks, then slip on some polar weight long underware and rubber insulated boots. My rubbers are a Cabelas special in camo and 1200 gram; I think they were 69.00 or 89.00.

So, yeah, I've had the 270.00 boots before and the 120.00 have out lasted them 3-fold.

I also buy at LEAST 2-pairs of dress shoes a year. I've had Dr. Martins, Mezlans, Allen Edmonds and even a pair of Zellis I received as a gift. All-in-all, either the color fades so bad you can't polish them any longer, the soles wear out, or both. I currently have a pair of Dr. Martins I think I paid 120.00 for from Zappos and a pair of 69.99 Florsheims in black and some brown Footjoys that are golf shoes with the plastic spikes removed (actually a really comfortable shoe for work).

So there too, I've had the 500.00 dress shoes and the 69.00 shoes....they all feel basically the same at the end of the day and they all have about the same life span.
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  #54  
Old August 7th, 2007, 11:00 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
Dr. Martins are dress shoes? I wrench in Dr. Martins...
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  #55  
Old August 7th, 2007, 11:14 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178

Oh man this is killing me. I think I'm going to have to get one for this season. I don't know if I'll go for the Sweet Sixteen right now; just a decent 12 bore for duck and dove would be awesome.
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  #56  
Old August 7th, 2007, 11:31 AM
ronward ronward is online now
KI4WWU
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 738
Oh yeah, that Browning humpback is a classic. Nice choice for bird hunting.

Since someone chimed in on shoes for work, I'll admit to having a taste for the finer footwear personally. It's Allen Edmonds in the black tassle loafer and the classic wingtip currently. I alternate. I've had these for 3 years now and I go through a full sole replacement once a year. The finish is in terrific shape on both pair.

I've had the Flourshime Imperials, and they were a bit heavy for me, and I looked like my grandfather when I had them on with a suit. For a long time after I got married I had two pair (tassel loafer and wingtip/brougham) of Church's English shoes. Now these are excellent handmade shoes you can buy overseas, or get from your local Church's shoe store. The one in Atlanta closed, so no joy from Church's from me any more. They cost a weeks pay, but are well worth it.

For casual friday's I usually wear a pair of brown Cole Haan penny loafers or my ancient Weejuns. Both are good without socks. I have another pair of those Gucci bit & bridle loafers but the sole on these is so thin they aren't very comfortable.

Unpopular to many, I love the Crocs for knocking around the house or on weekends. I have Keens for more active outdoor summertime activity too. In the winter I wear Clarks Wallabees (yep, that's right) low-cut version, LLBean blucher moccassins or my Gokey boots (sort of my trademark since highschool) with khaki pants.

Wow, that's more than anyone wanted to know about me I'm sure....
____________________
Ron Ward
1990 Range Rover Classic
& a couple nice watches

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  #57  
Old August 7th, 2007, 11:33 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
Perhaps with a new side arm as well: https://www.gunsamerica.com/Classifi...976917629.aspx

Unfortunately, unless I go with an Argentine or modern pistol, which I won't, they appear to be selling for much more than I thought/hoped they would be.
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  #58  
Old August 7th, 2007, 11:52 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 862
Dan, I call BS. Allen Edmonds can't be polished? LOL Do you use polish or those little spongy instant shoe shine gizmos?

I have a set of Allen Edmonds that I spit polished when I first got them and now all I have to do is lightly rub with some polish and then brush with a horsehair brush. They look fantastic after owning and wearing them for at least 10 years.
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  #59  
Old August 7th, 2007, 12:13 PM
Eric Siepmann
 
Posts: n/a
I never had any luck with AE's. The finish of the leather always looked goofy to me as well. Too ghetto. I was on their site and they have a lot of ghetto looking style as well.

Johnston and Murphy have worked the best for me. I rarely wear formal shoes so maybe when the J&M's wear I'll look at AE's again...

EwS
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  #60  
Old August 7th, 2007, 12:34 PM
dannydisco dannydisco is offline
Daniel Long
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchapman
All-in-all, either the color fades so bad you can't polish them any longer, the soles wear out, or both.

I promise you, if the shoe still has leather and you aquire the correct color polish you can shine almost anything back to color. My LPC's have served as my Florida hunting boots for the past five years. They've been through more swamps and palmetto thickets than I care to remember. They've been worn down until the toes looked like they were grey suede, yet with enough polish and work they come back, with the exception of the deep scrapes on the tips of the toes.

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  #61  
Old August 7th, 2007, 12:34 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Rupp
They look fantastic after owning and wearing them for at least 10 years.

That's the problem with Allen Edmonds. I don't want the same shoes for 10 years. Also, they generally fit too wide for me and the feel heavy and clunky compared to what I'm used to wearing.

I generally buy Italian balmoral-type oxford dress shoes (no loafers, thank you) and resole when needed. These last me ~2-3 resoles and 4-5 years. That's all the time I want to wear the same shoes anyway.

Right now I think all my dress shoes are either Ferragamo, or Bruno Magli. I did buy a pair of nice A. Testoni shoes 2 weeks ago. I haven't decided if I like them or not.
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  #62  
Old August 7th, 2007, 12:34 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,054
I'm a Church's kinda guy.
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  #63  
Old August 7th, 2007, 12:37 PM
ronward ronward is online now
KI4WWU
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 738
J&M's are a fine shoe, if you get the right ones. I had a pair of black / black sadles that wore fine for 2 years, then started to come apart. They run narrow too. They've not held up to repeated resoling like the AEs have for me. As far as the finish is concerned, depends on how you treat the shoe. At least horse-hair brush them before wearing, or apply light coats of polish. And you're killing them every time you put a good leather show away without first slipping in a good quality form-fitting shoe-tree.

For the field I wear the Gokey pull-on field boot, or my Chippewah all leather snake boot (nearly knee high). Around campsites where mosquitos or ticks roam I like the Blundstone #500's I bought about 5 years ago. In the cold weather I love my Vasque Sundowners. Never tried Georgia Boots, but I've seen them on the shelf in my feed & seed store alongside the Carhartt stuff. They have many insulated models. A homebuilder friend of mine wears them to work concrete, so that ought to tell you they are either tough as nails, or they suck so bad you wear them in concrete.

I have a pretty good sized vegetable garden out back and I clod around in Redwing's Pecos pull-on roper or a pair of LLBean workboots. And who can forget the Merrill Jungle Moc...?
____________________
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1990 Range Rover Classic
& a couple nice watches

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  #64  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:03 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by dchapman
Have I ever purchased "good" shoes, or expensive shoes?

...blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...

Dan, get the fuck out of this thread.

You are irrelevant.

No one here gives a shit about your lame little world or what you think about it.
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  #65  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:13 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomaskimura

Oh man this is killing me. I think I'm going to have to get one for this season. I don't know if I'll go for the Sweet Sixteen right now; just a decent 12 bore for duck and dove would be awesome.


Sweet sixteen is the only way to go and you know it.
Don't sell yourself short.
If you're going to get the first ever successful autoloading shotgun, get what is regarded as the nicest variant. You're not going to go buy a Remington 11 are you, even though it's essentially the same weapon? Hell no.

Get the light recoil operated A-5 sweet 16 and put 1oz loads through it all day long. Just imagine how sweet it will be with the friction rings dialed to your dove load. You'll be pulling down doubles and triples.

Oh yeahhhh.

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  #66  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:14 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by dannydisco
I promise you, if the shoe still has leather and you aquire the correct color polish you can shine almost anything back to color.


Agreed. I don't think I have ever had shoes that were so mangled that they could not be cleaned up very well.

I also very much like this product:

http://www.kiwishoeproducts.com/Kiwi...lack_p/107.htm

Don't let the "Kiwi" name dissuade you. This stuff works great. I haven't tried all of the various shoe care products so I don't know how well this dye compares to what else is out there, but this stuff works very well.

Apply the dye to your abraded leather and it turns black again. Then apply the shoe polish and the result is a nice gloss with deep color. It's far easier than trying to "dye" the leather black again with polish alone. This dye followed by a good polish job will transform your beater shoes into usable shoes again.

The dye is also available in brown.
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  #67  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:16 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,054
I dig the Model 12 but that A5 just isn't doing it for me.

That Browning long recoil method of operation is just too weird, even for me.
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  #68  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:30 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Any love for Tom's dream browning combo?



+


Thanks JB.

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  #69  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:48 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by expeditionswest
Regarding the 16 bore, I am not sure of the receiver, and have actually used that gun very little.

I am happy with how I shoot the Model 12 as well.

My schedule for the Fall is more open, which will allow for several wingshooting trips and afternoons at the Trap and Skeet Club. Let me know if your travels bring you to Arizona.

I have a few new additions that need some range time, including a Newport 12 bore side-by-side, Remington model 11-87 sporting clays, Beretta over-and-under, etc. We have a 5 stand sporting clays that should be fun.

Oh, and I like the Parker guns as well.

Scott,
I'm from Tuscon and my family still has a house there.
I make it back to hunt about four times each season.

Do any of these areas look familar to you? There's a bit of California mixed in, but most of the photos are from southern Arizona.

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/bird02/

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/bird03/

http://www.expeditionexchange.com/bird04/

(no need to name any specific locations)
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  #70  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:52 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by expeditionswest
Jack,

Great picture of a Model 12 still in use.

I think the Model 12 definitely meets the definition of a "meat gun".






Last edited by JSQ : August 7th, 2007 at 01:55 PM.
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  #71  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:55 PM
Scott Brady Scott Brady is offline
Scott Brady
KE7PNP
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 267
Series III 109 PU, early 1911 .45 and a Model 12. That would be perfect for a field shoot and day at the gun club

I just need the 109 now...
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  #72  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:59 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Any love for the Model 42?


That's the Model 12 on the left and the Model 42 on the right.

A very neat little .410 that I can hit almost nothing with.
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  #73  
Old August 7th, 2007, 01:59 PM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 862
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Any love for Tom's dream browning combo?



+


Thanks JB.


Definitely!

I've got the A5 12 gauge with 30" barrel full choke. It really is only good as a goose gun or trap gun, but I love the thing. I'll have to pull it out of the safe and take some pics.
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  #74  
Old August 7th, 2007, 02:01 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Rupp
Definitely!

I've got the A5 12 gauge with 30" barrel full choke. It really is only good as a goose gun or trap gun, but I love the thing. I'll have to pull it out of the safe and take some pics.


Please do.
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  #75  
Old August 7th, 2007, 02:17 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,287
Love the Hi-Power.

Not as big a fan of the "Ka-Chunk" A5 (but I'd still like to have one).
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