Expedition Exchange Bulletin Boards  

Go Back   Expedition Exchange Bulletin Boards > General
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old August 14th, 2007, 12:59 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Tom Kimura and I have Auto-5 fever.

I went to my local gun shop to see what was on hand.
One of the nice things about these American repeaters is that they are abundant and most modern consumers aren't all that interested. Many people in this country owned these over the years and virtually every town has some sitting in the back of a closet somewhere. To most they are little cause for excitement. The reality is that the sportsman who bought the Auto 5 during it's heyday gave birth to a son who bought the Remington 1100 and right now his son is eyeing up the Beretta Xtrema. The autoloader consumer in the US today is more likely to scoff at the antique Auto 5 then glorify it as the genetic predecessor to they newest synthetic 3 1/2" wonder gun. As a result there are many out there and most of the interest is from collectors looking for mint guns with ventilated ribs (yeeccch!). The passable field guns are pretty overlooked.

This shop had four guns on hand: a early Auto 5 16 bore, a mid 40s "Sweet Sixteen", a heavy 12 bore solid rib duck Auto 5 and a factory engraved 12 bore Remington 11D. Checking out these four different guns taught me a lot. Not everything, but it was a good primer. The early 16 is very different from the later examples. It utilizes a very distinct and awkward safety set into the front of the trigger guard.


This mechanism requires you to pull rearward towards the trigger to set the gun on safe. Many people find this pretty dangerous. I could see why. Also the earlier guns have the shell lifter in the loading port locked by the bolt release. You must depress the bolt release to load. I have no idea why. Later Auto 5s do not operate this way. Also, many early Auto 5 16 bores are chambered for 2 9/16" shells. They will only feed shells of this dimension reliably. If you are considering an early gun, either shoot the right shells or move on to another example. Don't hack it up to make it work, like I'm told some people do. The Remington 11 lacks the magazine cutoff of the Auto 5. That's a deal breaker right there as if getting the copycat gun was worthwhile compared to the real McCoy. The 12 bore Auto 5 with solid rib felt like an anti-aircraft weapon reciprocating barrel and all. It was just plain unwieldy.

The Sweet Sixteen is just that. This variant includes all of the best design features with better finish, engraving and wood. Also it is very light. Very light indeed for an early autoloader. It's a true 16 bore scale receiver. The proportions are very nice. It is neither clunky like the big 12, which felt very much like it's BAR cousin, or toy-like and whippy like the little 20. It was like mama bear's porridge: just right. A 1940s to 1960s Belgian-made Sweet Sixteen is the cat's meow. Cross-bolt safety, magazine cutoff, POW grip, nice factory rolled engraving, slim proportions and 16 bore chambering. That's the one to have.




And you should see the horn FN deep relief buttplate on the few guns that still have it intact. Very turn-of-the-century. Very cool.


The front ramp and bead site is a nice touch as well.


That's what I think at any rate. Back to what other people think:

I had all of the guns out on the counter and while I was looking at a AH Fox B grade 12 bore in another cabinet two potential Benelli Nova customers came in and eyed the long-recoil guns of their grandfathers. The conversation went like this.

Sucka: "Those yours?"
Chump: "Nope. I don't really like those things."
Sucka: "Me neither."
Shop Employee: "Hello, how can I help you?"
Chump: " I'd like to see that gun." (points to camo benelli Nova)
Sucka: "Me too."

Meanwhile, I was feeling it big time.
Not only had I already gotten familiar with the method of operation and manual of arms on the various examples, but I was loving the design. Browning long recoil is igenious. It's totally inferior to the modern reliability of systems like the Benelli Inertia, but this gun was designed in 1898.
The cycling of the weapon is as follows:

-Discharging the chambered round creates recoil which drives the entire barrel, empty shell and bolt reward, resisted by a recoil spring.
-As the bolt moves rearward extraction and ejection of the spent shell occurs
-When the bolt reaches the rear of the receiver it is locked in place and held open
-The barrel then reciprocates forward driven by the recoil spring independent of the bolt
-As the barrel moves forward a fresh shell is lifted from the magazine
-When the barrel returns to battery, the bolt is released and cycles forward chambering the fresh round.


wow.

While shotgun technology has gone towards more versatile designs some long recoil weapons are still in service and new weapons like the Barratt M107 LRSR are still being designed with this method of operation.

Here's what else blew me away on the Auto 5:


What exactly is that toggle-switch just rear of the magazine?

A magazine cutoff.

That's badass.

A magazine cutoff is a very insightful feature that is very functional to the field hunter. What this mechanism does is prevent rounds in the magazine from being cycled on to the lifter when the bolt is operated. One of the downsides to repeaters as field weapons is that they are not made safe as easily and quickly as a double. The classic example is crossing a barbed-wire fence. The gun should be made safe by removing the chambered rounds to cross such an obstacle. Sometimes it is awkward or difficult to remove the chambered round without then cycling another. Enter the magazine cutoff. Simply flip the switch, eject the shell, cross the fence, drop the shell in, release the bolt and flip the cutoff switch back. That's about as easy as it gets in a repeater. I love this feature. It's common on many modern autoloaders. It was not common in 1898.

Once I started to examine the Auto-5 critically I began to believe that it was not merely Browning's intention to design the first viable automatic repeating shotgun. Rather he sought to design simply the best shotgun to date. He designed a whole weapon rather than simply a method of operation. In contrast, to Paul Mausers failed (and dangerous) attempts to create a self-loading rifle Browning was the architect of a whole weapon system. The design is uncommon and the gun is accordingly funky, but it is viable for many reasons. It is not merely some Rube Goldberg means to a simple end.

A brilliant design and a strong American field heritage make this gun a winner.
Add the fact that most people don't get it.
I'm sold.


Last edited by JSQ : August 14th, 2007 at 01:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old August 14th, 2007, 01:23 PM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 862
Just wait until you shoot it. I've shot countless boxes of rounds through mine and still feel the love. It does have a 30" barrel, so it feels like there is a barrel is as long as a broom stick, but its wonderful for trap or goose.

Contrast that to my 20 gauge Browning Citari with gold game scene. Its is not unique in any way. It is completely wannabe, but the A5 is its own shotgun. My Citari is probably worth 4 times as much as the A5, but theres no love there. Each time I pick up the A5 and look down the barrel, I smile just a little.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old August 14th, 2007, 02:51 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Mike, Tom and I are not the only Browning fans.

Here's one individual who really favored the most prolific of gun designers:


That's Clyde Barrows somewhere in the middle of he and Bonnie's crime spree.

Clyde has chosen to arm himself with three different browning weapons: The Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR), the Auto-5 and the 1911. Clyde knew what he was doing.

Here's a shot of Bonnie:


That's a shot she and Clyde staged with a hostage police officer. That Auto-5 is looking pretty menacing. I have to assume that these two criminals understood the shotgun and how to make it work properly. I would theorize that having shortened the bbls and changed the inertial weight of the recoil mechanism they would have had to adjust the friction rings accordingly. I bet they did. I bet the Auto-5 in that picture is ready to cycle, and did.

Now for a bit of irony.
Everyone is familiar with the story of the lawmen who tracked down these two public enemies and ventilated them.
It was a famously gruesome end.



Here are the Texas Rangers and Louisiana officers who shot them down:


The list of the weapons that these men chose for the task of taking on such dangerous criminals (far too many officers had already been outgunned and killed by the outlaws to take any chances) including BARs, Auto-5s and this weapon:


That is a actual Remington Model 8 in .35 Rem that one of the officers used.
This is a very interesting self-loading rifle.
It's long-recoil.

It was designed by John Browning.

Even during the heyday of the Thompson, many police officers favored these autoloading Remingtons because of the vehicle penetration afforded by .35 Rem. There were a couple used in this shooting. The one above and the weapon in the bottom right of this picture:


Check out the magazine that Officer Frank Hamer adapted to his Remington Model 8 to give it 20 round capacity. Funky. The other three weapons (BAR, Auto-5 and Winchester lever action 10 bore) were all recovered from the criminals car at the time of the shooting. Browning designs everywhere.

Live by the Browning, die by the Browning, I guess.

I've had this tin ad at home for a while:


Again, that's a Model 8 featuring the Browning long recoil method of operation.

It's a very interesting rifle.


It weighs in at about 9lbs and it's weight coupled with the recoil operation give it a reputation for being a very stable platform for sustained accurate fire.

Let's look at Frank Hamer's specially armored Model 8 again:


Only the magazine is exceptional. Everything else is straight Model 8. Including the muzzle. It's a small pic, but do you see it? The reciprocating barrel appears to be shrouded? Weird.

Last edited by JSQ : August 14th, 2007 at 02:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old August 14th, 2007, 03:24 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,054
Jack's newfound love for repeating weapons and his newfound deeper understanding of different methods of operation are both thrilling and exciting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
The reciprocating barrel appears to be shrouded? Weird.

The Model 8's barrel is indeed shrouded. The shroud is fat to give clearance for the barrel's recoil spring.

Now, the Model 8's barrel reciprocates to and fro, but doesn't tilt. Does that make it "fixed"?

You've come a long way, baby.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old August 15th, 2007, 08:55 AM
DJ Menasco DJ Menasco is offline
DJ Menasco
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 158
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee

The Model 8's barrel is indeed shrouded. The shroud is fat to give clearance for the barrel's recoil spring.


Indeed an interesting rifle.

When my grandfather passed away he left me his model 8. I didn't know much about firearms (and still don't) but the barrel intrigued me. Eventually I was able to identify it. I'm still in the dark about the weapon and would like to find some ammunition for it as I've never used it.
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old August 15th, 2007, 09:40 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ Menasco
Indeed an interesting rifle.

When my grandfather passed away he left me his model 8. I didn't know much about firearms (and still don't) but the barrel intrigued me. Eventually I was able to identify it. I'm still in the dark about the weapon and would like to find some ammunition for it as I've never used it.

Unless it's chambered in .35 Rem (the most powerful cartridge utilized by the Model 8) there will be no commercially available ammo. You'll have to roll your own and you won't even be able to buy casings, you'll have to make them.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old August 15th, 2007, 03:15 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Last night I lost a gunbroker auction for a Sweet Sixteen.

I'm depressed.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old August 15th, 2007, 03:29 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,054
Check out this one at Cabela's:

http://cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...855_a5_rog.jsp

It's described as NIB with papers, 2.75" chamber, 28" barrel with no rib, 7.5 lbs., and with BB gun safety.

Cabela's was asking $2,000. Unfortunately, sale is pending so it's probably sold.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old August 15th, 2007, 11:20 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
That's impressive that it's in unfired condition but I'm not feeling it on that gun.

First, I gotta have the Sweet Sixteen, not just for the love but also the lighter weight.

Second, I would prefer a gun with some wear. Not marred, but some dulling of the finish here and there. I'm buying this to be a field gun and I want one with some field history.

Cabelas also had this gun.


Tom and I have both been eyeing that one.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old August 16th, 2007, 08:45 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 862
So with all of this A5 talk going on, I did some googling on A5s lately. It seems that there is a recurring theme that the A5 is a recoil beast because of the long recoil operation. Have these meatheads ever shot an A5? I have shot 250 rounds in an afternoon at a trap range and my shoulder felt fine. There is very little felt recoil at all.

It seems that there are a bunch of internet loudmouths that just recycle this crap about the A5 on the various BBS.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old August 16th, 2007, 10:02 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
I've also read these accounts of powerful recoil on the Auto-5.

It seems very counterintuitive.

At least in theory any recoil operated repeating design will mitigate felt recoil in comparison to a fixed breech design.

It's funny because everyone talks about how the Model 8 has no recoil and then they babble about the Auto-5 having lots.
WTF?! It's the same method of operation.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old August 16th, 2007, 10:07 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 862
These same idiots that rip on the A5 for having punishing recoil then recommend a o/u instead. LOL My 20 gauge o/u has a much more punishing recoil than my 12 gauge A5.

Also, check out Browning.com. They have old owner's manuals as well as a page that lists the year of manufacture based on the serial number. Mine was made in 1952 in the first year that FN started making the A5.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old August 16th, 2007, 01:48 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,054
I've never shot an A5 so I can't say.

But I believe most of the credible talk about the A5's heavier recoil is in comparison to other self-loaders of the same bore size and weight. For example, compare an A5 to a Remington 1100. There, I can imagine the A5 having a heavier perceived recoil than the 1100. For me, the gas-operated self-loaders noticeably less perceived recoil than my Super 90. From what I gather, the A5 has has more perceived recoil than a Super 90.

But it is hard for me to imagine the A5 having a heavier perceived recoil than an equivalent pump or double. That doesn't jive.

Again, I've never shot an A5.

We'll just have to test it out ourselves when Jack and Tom score their own A5s.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old August 16th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 862
Ok, I've done a little more reading on the recoil of the A5. What happens is that most people have the shotgun's friction rings setup for light target loads and then shoot the heavy loads. What happens then is that the barrel comes back and bangs into the back of the receiver, thus increasing the perceived recoil.

I'll admit that until this week, I've never even knew how the whole recoil system worked. I'll be ordering a new recoil spring and friction ring soon.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old August 16th, 2007, 06:00 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,287
The few A5's I've used I did not feel they suffered from excessive recoil. However, IMHO they do exhibit a very heavy, clunkish action compared to modern autoloaders.

I think many hunters/shooters out there lack an understanding of, or to have a sense of history. When you realize the Auto-5 first hit the market around the same time as the first Lugers, one can better appreciate Browning's design and FN's quality.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old August 16th, 2007, 06:14 PM
nosivad_bor nosivad_bor is offline
Rob Davison
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,051
greg, this is off subject but I'm not in havasu anymore so it looks like i wont be able to get those plugs made for you or jack. It really was easy to do except we argued about how to get the square hole in the end and never gave it a try. sorry for that.

for the record we concluded carbide would be the wrong material and were going to try it using 4140 shafting we had on stock and heat treating it.

rob
____________________
-Rob
1999 Discovery 1

Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old August 16th, 2007, 07:23 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,287
No problem, Rob. I think your idea was a good solution the problem of mangled diff plugs.

Are you permanently back to PA?
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old August 16th, 2007, 07:23 PM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Been a while since I've stopped in here.

I have a pair of Russell PHs and love them. Hunted plains game in RSA in '04 wearing them. My wife and I took some good advice and wore a set of clothes we could hunt in, including shoes, in case our luggage got lost. That way we could show up with no bags at all and still hunt by borrowing a rifle. I ended up forgetting to bring any other shoes so they became the only pair of shoes I wore for 2 weeks. If you are going to hunt the hills I would get the the double vamp and heel counters. They are definitely a warm weather boot. I've worn them bird hunting and early season deer hunting.

I am waiting for the day I find a Remingtom Model 8 in 35 or 30 Remington gathering dust in the dark corner of a country gunshop. Idon't care if I have to turn rims to make cases, a 30 Remingtom would be so cool(30-30 rimless) I live 50 miles from where they were made.

Still in the clothes I flew in. 2nd pic is not so great, but the light was almost gone and the photographer I drafted only spoke Twana, you can see the shoes though. Normally I like a cleaner posed shot with no blood. If you could bottle how good the first cold Castle Lager felt that night, crack dealers would go out of business.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 60436944.DSCF0001.jpg (23.2 KB, 33 views)
File Type: jpg 84015986.BIJrgPXY.jpg (129.5 KB, 43 views)
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old August 17th, 2007, 03:07 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Here's a little evidence of the American sporting heritage each period Model 12 and Auto-5 have ingrained in them right here in San Diego.



Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old August 17th, 2007, 05:04 PM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
What ever happened to your friend who went to TZ Jack?
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old August 17th, 2007, 11:40 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinNY
What ever happened to your friend who went to TZ Jack?

I never saw or heard from him again.
Seriously.

Maybe he made it back and is laying low.
Maybe that's what you get for apprenticing to PH with Mark Sullivan.

Scary.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old August 19th, 2007, 11:46 AM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Weird.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old August 19th, 2007, 03:48 PM
read read is offline
Read Kerlin
KI6CSI
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 302
is your friend in this footage?
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old August 19th, 2007, 07:12 PM
reelpain
 
Posts: n/a
That's either poor shooting skills or they need to sight in those scopes!! That would leave "marks" in my skivvies.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old August 20th, 2007, 05:10 AM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Famous canned lion hunt footage
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
10 days and 2100 miles in a Land Rover traveltoad General 87 October 19th, 2016 06:43 AM
Leica Love montanablur General 101 July 27th, 2016 06:15 PM
Need Electric Razor Advice johnlee General 130 January 17th, 2014 09:22 AM
The early days, compliments of Shawn JSQ General 6 July 20th, 2006 09:27 PM
DiscoDino does Toy Conversion DiscoDino Technical Discussions 2 August 21st, 2004 01:50 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:07 PM.




Copyright 2001-2012 Expedition Exchange Incorporated. All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.