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  #76  
Old May 8th, 2008, 09:25 AM
Nadir_E
 
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excellent points, Jack / John.

On the tac-reload - at my last class the acronym used to train us was "FAST" - Fight (shoot the drill), Assess (determine if you actually hit with the correct number of rounds - continue shooting until requisite number of hits was achieved), Scan (look through 360-degrees in a low-ready to identify other threats [weapons remained pointed down-range], and Tac Reload. Every time. We caught a good amount of guff if we let our pistols run dry unless it was an exceptionally long string.

One question for you guys - at your class did they have you retain partially loaded mags or drop them during the tac reload? I've been taught both, most recently to just drop them. The idea being that if you win the fight you can pick them up later, otherwise trying to fiddle with them may cost you the fight. The guy who taught retention was a Sheriff's dept. SEB team leader. Dunno.

John - you're right about the bang-bang-holster thing being ingrained - and if he gets into a fight he may very well do just that! Two very sad stories of LEO's dying due (at least in part) to poor training back in the 70's: 1) Officer killed in a grocery store robbery when he confronted the perp and was killed because he failed to disengage the safety on his new semi-auto pistol (he'd previously been equipped with a revolver); 2) CHP officer killed in a gunfight and found with expended brass from his revolver in his pocket and rounds spilled on the ground as he'd been reloading single rounds - both 'habits' developed based on how the qualification range was run back in those days (needed to keep the range clean ya know).

You fight the way you train, period. I believe this is the real advantage of Jack's efforts at the Steel Challenge. The guy in the Steel Challenge video needs to try firing from different positions after taking cover while reloading (e.g. start high, work his way down to kneeling, possibly prone, so as not to appear in the same spot over and over again).

Sigh. Hankering to go back to the range now.....
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  #77  
Old May 8th, 2008, 09:41 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E

One question for you guys - at your class did they have you retain partially loaded mags or drop them during the tac reload? I've been taught both, most recently to just drop them. The idea being that if you win the fight you can pick them up later, otherwise trying to fiddle with them may cost you the fight. The guy who taught retention was a Sheriff's dept. SEB team leader. Dunno.


I know a magazine change with retention as a "tactical reload".
I know a magazine change where a magazine with rounds discarded as a "speed reload".

If the gun is run-dry and the empty magazine is discarded it is a "emergency reload".

I believe the speed reload has it's place, but I practice mostly the tactical reload. In IDPA you are docked points for peforming a speed reload.

In the case of the emergency reload, I follow the logic of an instructor who urged us to discard the empty magazine purposefully. An empty magazine is a dangerous risk if you retain it. You may in the course of the gunfight reinsert it in your weapon. Once it's empty you should have nothing to do with it.
(The exception being your last magazine. If you have any loose rounds, leaving the empty magazine in your pistol will allow you to single feed the pistol as quickly as possible, should it come to that.)

Similary, the logic follows that if a magazine has any rounds at all in it, you should retain it if possible. Your gunfight may come down to those last rounds.
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  #78  
Old May 8th, 2008, 10:03 AM
Scott Brady Scott Brady is offline
Scott Brady
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Nice hat Aaron.



It was great meeting up with you in Prescott.
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  #79  
Old May 8th, 2008, 10:12 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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I thought you might like that! It was really great to hang with you guys! I hope we can do it again when Gabrielle and I are there for Pistol 250 & 350 next spring.
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  #80  
Old May 8th, 2008, 11:46 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
One question for you guys - at your class did they have you retain partially loaded mags or drop them during the tac reload? I've been taught both, most recently to just drop them. The idea being that if you win the fight you can pick them up later, otherwise trying to fiddle with them may cost you the fight. The guy who taught retention was a Sheriff's dept. SEB team leader. Dunno.


I don't like this. I'm not Mr. Gunfighter and I'm not an instructor for the SEB (whatever that is), but I don't like this at all.

I think one has to learn how top up a weapon and not discard unused rounds (tactical reload), just he must learn to top up a weapon and discard unused rounds (speed reload). He must learn both systems because he should use one or the other system depending on the circumstances.

Let's just say hypotethically you fire twice and you have the opportunity to top up your weapon safely. Do you discard the six rounds in the magazine just to top up the weapon? I wouldn't want to do that. But if you're not well versed in tactical reloads and know only the speed reload or emergency reload, then you're either going to perform a speed reload and discard the six rounds in the magazine, or you will not top up your weapon at all (even though you can do so without danger).

The same is true of the revolver. Let's say you fire two shots and you have the opportunity to top up your revolver. But you've learned only the speed reload or emergency reload at this SEB school. Do you discard the four rounds remaining in the cylinder just to top up your weapon? I wouldn't want to do that. In this situation, you will probably not top up your weapon and rely on the four remaining shots, when the situation is such that topping up your revolver would be prudent.

The tactical reload has its place, just as the speed reload and emergency reload have their place. I think the pistolero has to learn all three.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I know a magazine change with retention as a "tactical reload".

I know a magazine change where a magazine with rounds discarded as a "speed reload".

If the gun is run-dry and the empty magazine is discarded it is a "emergency reload".


This is the parlance used by Front Sight, and I really like it. At first I was resistant, because "that's not how Jeff Cooper taught it". I reacted this way several times during our Front Sight course out of reflex, but always tried to keep an open mind. I'm glad I did, because I really like Front Sight's classification of the reloads.

Jeff Cooper made no distinction between the speed reload and the emergency reload, because both reloads used the same basic physical movements (same except for releasing the slide on the emergency reload, which isn't required on the speed reload). So he wasn't "wrong". He was simply trying to keep the classifications as simple as possible. (Such as Cooper's color code of mental awareness is composed of white, yellow, orange, and red rather than white, yellow, orange, red, and black.)

However, I prefer Front Sight's three-prong classification of reloading better than Cooper's two-prong classification. While the physical movements are largely identical, there is a difference (the slide stop release). But that difference isn't that big of deal. Much more importantly, there is a very big mental difference between a speed reload and an emergency reload.

Front Sight classifies the emergency reload as a malfunction drill. When you're caught with the slide back on an empty magazine, you must react instantly and reflexively, as though you were clearing a malfunction on the pistol.

In contrast, a speed reload is a conscious decision. It's not done out of reflex. It's a conscious decision to dump a magazine with rounds still in it and top up the weapon as quickly as possible because the situation calls for it.

There is a very big difference in reacting reflexively and consciously. I would never try to make it a reflex to reholster a pistol. Rather, it should be a conscious decision to reholster. And it should pain you mentally to reholster. But I do want to make a reflex to emergency reload my pistol when it's empty. I want this to happen reflexively and automatically. I think the mental difference between a speed reload and emergency reload is enough that it's worthwhile to classify the speed reload and emergency reload separately.

There were some other differences between the Front Sight and Cooper teachings where I was resistant at first but ended up adopting the Front Sight method. This emergency/speed reload distinction was just one of them.
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  #81  
Old May 8th, 2008, 01:09 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Peep this clip:


I'm not into this point shooting technique or the stance that goes along with it, but I was really digging the two drills that involved the rest of the students in the class particpating as a "crowd".

Having the shooter run all the way from outside the range and then fight his way through the class (with weapon holstered) and only after that engage the targets, must make for an excellent drill. With your heart rate accelerated and your body off-balance only strong fundamentals will keep you on target. I would have liked to see the student engage the targets and reload on the move a la Gabe Suarez, but I guess this Israeli point-shooting is all about lining up like a defensive tackle.
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  #82  
Old May 9th, 2008, 10:01 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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That Israeli combat shooting technique has been around a while. I always crack up whenever I see it. The technique is basically to square off against the target, point at it, and fire multiple rounds (presumably because point shooting is so prone to missing).

That flip of the pistol into ghetto orientation after it's been shot dry is a mystery to me. I'm not sure what the purpose of that flip is.

I notice the Israeli technique has changed a little from the way I had seen it in the past. Now the guys have their weapons loaded in the holster. I had always seen this technique with the weapon in condition three (full magazine, slide forward on empty chamber), and the shooter squares off against the target, draws the weapon, chambers a round Krav Maga style, and then points at the target and fires three or four rounds.
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  #83  
Old May 9th, 2008, 12:19 PM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
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Yeah that flip at the end makes no sense. I can't think of any reason for doing that.
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  #84  
Old May 9th, 2008, 12:57 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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To signal the other guy that it is ok to come out from cover on the attack.
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  #85  
Old May 9th, 2008, 06:41 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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I found some good Clint Smith clips on YouTube that show the different approaches used by different instructors.

Clint on the revolver:


You can see that he demonstrates both the emergency and tactical reloads for the revolver.

It's also interesting that he teaches the quick check left and right after going to low ready after firing. But it's not really a quick check. Rather, it's more of a scan but with the pistol facing straight down range.

Clint on the "empty load" ("emergency reload" in Front Sight parlance):


Note how Clint Smith doesn't favor releasing the slide by depressing the slide stop and prefers to work the slide. Several schools teach this, but usually on the ground that the slide is a much larger piece to manipulate than a slide stop under stress. I'm sure Clint Smith is aware of this; he's a smart guy. But Clint is also digging using the slide because of its universality to all nearly all self-loading pistols.

Clint on the tactical reload:


Like Nadir's instructor, Clint doesn't like the tactical reload. But he thinks it has a place and teaches it because it has a place. Clint's tactical reload method is the one I'm most familiar with.

At Front Sight, they taught us to perform the tactical reload as follows: (1) check for a spare magazine with the support hand or elbow; (2) release the used magazine into the support hand; pocket the used magazine with the support hand; (4) grab the fresh magazine from the support-side magazine pouch; (5) insert the fresh magazine into the pistol; (6) step to the side while doing a quick check left and right; and (7) scan slowly left and right with the pistol at low ready and the pistol below where the eyes are looking.

Clint on clearing malfunctions on self-loaders:


Clint's approach to the double feed ("Type III" in Front Sight parlance) is interesting to me. It's sort of a blend between the Front Sight method and the Gabe Suarez method.

Front Sight taught us to assess which type of malfunction we had instead of panacea approach used by Clint Smith and Gabe Suarez of using the tap-rack-flip approach first and if that doesn't work to strip the magazine. At Front Sight, we didn't use the Type I and Type II methods before trying the Type III method.

In the Front Sight method for clearing Type III malfunctions, the shooter first locks the slide open before yanking the magazine from the pistol. We were given the option of just dropping the magazine (under the theory that the magazine might be defective) or retaining it with the strong-side pinky. Our rack-rack-rack of the slide was with the support hand firmly on the slide and we were taught to push and pull the slide violently forward as well as backward (to get the extractor over the chambered empty case).

I've seen Gabe Suarez clear a Type III first by tap-rack-flip and when that didn't work, he just pulled the magazine and let the slide go forward under spring pressure. Then he reinserts the magazine and racks the slide.

Clint Smith does a combination of the Front Sight and Suarez methods on double feeds. Clint first tries the tap-rack-flip method first. When that doesn't work, he just pulls the magazine (no locking open of the slide), but does the rack-rack-rack before inserting the magazine and racking again. Just to make things a little more different, Clint doesn't push the slide forward with the support hand and lets spring pressure do it.

Different approaches to the same problem.
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  #86  
Old May 9th, 2008, 07:24 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Jeff Cooper on the compressed surprise break:


The concept of the compressed surprise break is an enigma to most shooters. I first learned about the compressed surprise break from Cooper's books, and I really like how he explains the compressed surprise break.

The open-end surprise break is accomplished with the shooter steadily increasing pressure on the trigger until there is sufficient weight on the trigger to release the hammer/striker. Exactly when the hammer or striker falls is a "surprise" to the shooter because he is not yanking the trigger and does not know exactly when the hammer or striker will fall. Rather, he just starts with light pressure on the trigger and keeps steadily increasing the pressure until the fall of the hammer or striker "surprises" him.

The compressed surprise break differs from the open-end surprise break in that there is a time constraint on when the hammer or striker will fall. This time limit may be an hour. It may be a minute. It may be 30 seconds. It may be 10 seconds. Whatever the time limit is in that particular circumstance, the shooter simply adds trigger pressure at such a rate that the hammer or striker will fall before the time limit is reached.

Good shooters can perform a true surprise break in well under a second. Grand Dragon Jedi Masters can perform a true surprise break in the time it takes to perform a blink of the eye. But while that time limit is extremely short, the skilled shooter is truly just adding pressure to the trigger until he is "surprised" by the fall of the hammer or striker.

The compressed surprise break is extremely important. In fact, it is one of the five elements of the Modern Technique of the Pistol:

1. Weaver Stance
2. Flash Sight Picture
3. Compressed Surprise Break
4. Presentation
5. Heavy-Duty Self-Loading Pistol

As I said previously, the compressed surprise break is an enigma to most shooters. Check out this rookie shit on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Cooper_%28colonel%29

According to Wiki, "[t]he five elements of the modern technique are:

* A large caliber pistol, preferably a semi-auto
* The Weaver stance
* The Flash Sight Picture
* The Compressed Breath
* Surprise Trigger Break"

Rookies. What on earth is "The Compressed Breath" supposed to be? Is that some breathing technique? More rookie shit here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_..._of_the_Pistol

" * The Surprise Break

The surprise break is the technique used to depress the trigger and discharge the weapon. This practice is designed so the shooter depresses the trigger in one smooth motion without flinching or otherwise upsetting the stability of the firearm by anticipating the trigger's breaking point and recoil; the trigger is smoothly squeezed, rather than roughly pulled, which was the standard practice when point shooting, which was the common technique of the day for the use of handguns."

The surprise break is not an element of the Modern Technique. Rather, the compressed surprised break is. Furthermore, that's a terrible description of even the open-end surprise break.

Jeff Cooper hasn't even been dead that long and already people are getting it wrong.
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  #87  
Old May 11th, 2008, 02:50 PM
ryanspeed
 
Posts: n/a
Re: the compressed/open surprise break

The Sigarms Academy teaches a variant of this, called the "bump drill"
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  #88  
Old May 11th, 2008, 07:51 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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I'm liking Clint Smith's teaching style.

I don't necessarily go in for everything he has to say, for example I believe in the tactical reload, but he is clear and his reasoning is very sound.

I'm beginning to find that once you go beyond the basics in defensive pistiol there are a myriad of techniques to perform the same task. What I've decided that while you may have a particular preference there is no one best way to do it. Rather, there are two.
This is to say that while not every technique is good (there's a lot of stupid shit out there being taught at the Kapa Academy and elsewhere) there must be more than one sound technique and you need to know at least two. This applies not only to simple tasks like malfunctions, but also two more complicated scenarios like engaging targets from a vehicle or peforming reloads with only your support side hand. Through the course of one's endeavors to "master" these skills you need not study each methodology as exclusive. Rather you can mix style and apply technique as you see fit.
For me, this is a very exciting part of training and dry practice. I won't rely simply on what I've been taught but I'm very critical of any way I attempt to change convention.

Take for example the malfunction drills John described as taught by Clint, Jeff, Gabe, Ignatius and others.
I now have arrived at my own amalgamation of techinques. I shoot a Glock. Malfunctions are not a strong likelihood for me, but why not master them? I consider malfunction drills a strong point for me and I think I can simply perform the drills taught at Front Sight with good success, but if I can do it better...

Firstly I have decided against the malfunction assessment as taught at Front Sight. I have begun to feel like the ability to visually identify the problem has been a dubious and possibly unnecessary skill. So many conditions could prevent you from successfully making this determination I just don't feel it can be relied upon. Futhermore there is no easy and effective way to practice this assessment. When you set up a type 2, point in, press and look, you see... ...a type 2! No shit. Same for anything else. It's never a suprise and I'm never really looking. I can't switch my brain off and forget what I set up. So I'm never really practicing. Therefore, I'm subscribing to Gabe and Clint's approach which attacks all malfunctions in two stages. The first is always tap-rack-FLIP (I don't really see Clint dumping the pistol over and I think this is an important difference) to clear a type 1 or type 2 malfunction. Then if the weapon does not operate I proceed immediately to a type 3 drill.
Again I'm mixing things up a bit on the type 3. After some sound advice from another instructor and quite a bit of experimenting I have forgone the slide lock on the type 3. This is the most awkward part of the operation and I do not believe it is essential. Gabe and Clint don't lock it back and it doesn't seem to hamper their efforts.
Rather I proceed directly to stripping the magazine. I do not retain it. I believe, as Front Sight teaches that the magazine may be part of the problem. I'm not going to take chances on it. Furthermore I am now many steps deep in a drill which I may be performing at the worst of times. I am vulnerable. It's time for speed.
Next I grip the rear of the slide and cycle it three times back AND forth. I don't release the slide. I don't have to grab it again. I quickly and forcefully affect extraction. Not only do I like this Front Sight method better because it's more complete, but if for any reason the slide is obstructed or operation is otherwise impaired, I will feel it right then and there.
Presuming all is well I will then insert a fresh magazine and cycle the slide.
I do not attempt to recover the stripped magazine.

This is the technique that I think achieves the best results, but I don't stop the practice there. Each time I perform this drill I now attempt it a few times while keeping on the move at a forward diagonal rather than sitting stationary with an inoperable weapon. When I have completed the type 1/2 and type 3 drills I point in on my target and press. I then decide (for practice sake) that the weapon either functions or that it does not.
If I decide it did not bang then I consider the weapon jammed and inoperable. I make no further attempts manipulate it. While continuing movement back towards my agressor I shift the pistol to my support hand in a striking (as opposed to firing) grip and present my Benchmade. (This is all Gabe Suarez style close range gunfighting)
I then alternate two quick strikes to the face with the pistol in the support hand with two low stabs with the knife in the other hand. I then move away from my agressor to the side or on a forward diagonal.
If I had a secondary pistol I would perform the same transition with the inoperable primary pistol and then engage the target with the secondary.

This is how the whole drill has evolved for me so far. I don't know shit about edged weapons so I'm keeping that aspect of the drill simple and limited to what I can reliably perform. I'll keep working on it and as soon as I see reason I'll change it yet again and practice some more.
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  #89  
Old May 12th, 2008, 07:18 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I'm subscribing to Gabe and Clint's approach which attacks all malfunctions in two stages. The first is always tap-rack-FLIP (I don't really see Clint dumping the pistol over and I think this is an important difference) to clear a type 1 or type 2 malfunction. Then if the weapon does not operate I proceed immediately to a type 3 drill.


I've thought about this panacea-style approach to all stoppages, but I'm hesitating. If the immediate and automatic response is a tap-rack-flip whenever the pistol doesn't go bang, then wouldn't this be the response whenever the pistol is shot dry and the slide is locked open over an empty magazine? Granted, a tap-rack-flip before an emergency reload wouldn't slow things down that much, so I can see the validity of this approach. Do the tap-rack-flip whenever the pistol doesn't fire. It's not "wrong".

But, at least for the time being, I'm kinda digging Front Sight's two-pronged approach between a click and a dead trigger.

When the shooter gets a click instead of a bang, he reflexively steps to the side and performs the tap-rack-flip.

But when the shooter gets a dead trigger (because the disconnector is engaged because there is an empty case caught in the ejection port or there was a failure to feed, because there was a failure to extract, or because the weapon is empty and the slide is locked back over an empty magazine), the shooter is supposed to step to the side while flipping up the pistol so that he can see what is wrong. Then he can apply the proper remedy (tap-rack-flip for the failure to eject or failure to feed, Type III clearance for the failure to extract, and emergency reload for the empty pistol). The three different remedies for a dead-trigger situation are so different that I'm inclined to favor looking at the pistol to see what is wrong before automatically doing one thing or the other.

I'm kinda digging the idea of looking at the pistol whenever I get a dead trigger, at least for the time being. This is contrary to my usual approach to shooting, where I try to learn the broadest possible techniques to various shooting problems. I may switch to the Clint Smith/Gabe Suarez panacea approach later on though. I'll play with it.
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  #90  
Old May 12th, 2008, 09:58 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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This is interesting.

I want the malfunction drill to be reflexive, but I don't want it to be robotic. Some assessment is necessary.
For me, differentiating between an emergency reload and a stoppage malfunction is pretty natural. I recognize the emergency reload with only a quick glance. I know this because I have experienced the emergency reload unexpectedly and reacted without hesitation.

Unfortunately, (for the sake of practice) I haven't experienced any malfunction stoppages at all. So I have no idea what my reaction is like. I only know how I practice these drills in a contrived scenario which lacks the suprise of the real deal. This is my main problem with the quick check.
I have no way to really practice it.

I wish there was some sort of dummy round that could trigger these malfunctions. I suppose one could underload a few rounds, and mix them in while training. These could result in incomplete extraction. However, you wouldn't want a squib so weak that it left the barrel obstructed. That would be potentially disastrous. The dangers are severe enough that I don't even want to attempt it.
You can have a friend mix some dummy rounds into a magazine for you to suprise you, but this would only ever result in a type 1, which requires no quick check because the dry press is the indicator for the malfunction.

I want a technique that I can accurately reproduce in practice sessions.
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  #91  
Old May 12th, 2008, 10:06 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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While adding a dummy round will only give you a type 1 malfunction, I think it is worth while.

I did this when at Gunsite (Pistol 250) and it really helped. I loaded the dummy rounds into a couple of the magazines and then grabbed the lot. I never knew if or when the dummy round would enter into the equation.

In fact, during one drill I had a type 1 malfunction which I cleared without even thinking. Only after the drill did the coach show me the unfired round. And only then did I remember that I had not loaded any dummy rounds that afternoon. During the drill it just happened and I moved on.

Last edited by traveltoad : May 12th, 2008 at 10:12 AM.
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  #92  
Old May 12th, 2008, 10:09 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
That Israeli combat shooting technique has been around a while. I always crack up whenever I see it.

This Krav Maga stuff really is ridiculous.

Check out this vid:


There's more footage of the G-style firing grip.
I think I figured it out.
These jokers flip the gun over because they always operate the slide lobster-style with a pinch. The flip helps facilitate their awkward technique and since they don't look at the sights they don't care that they've lost sight picture.

L-O-fucking-L.
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  #93  
Old May 12th, 2008, 10:51 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I want the malfunction drill to be reflexive, but I don't want it to be robotic. Some assessment is necessary.


Agreed. I'm trying to figure out a panacea-style approach to malfunctions, but I'm not sure it exists. At the risk of complicating things, I think at least some assessment is necessary. I think even Clint Smith and Gabe Suarez don't automatically tap-rack-flip whenever the gun goes dry. I'll bet they would jump right to an emergency reload if they got caught with the slide back.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I want a technique that I can accurately reproduce in practice sessions.


I think the best way to get these is to shoot others' pistols. You'd be surprised how shitty many self-loaders are. Remember the malfunctions on the firing line at Front Sight? There were some malfunctions on the firing line at last Thursday's man vs. man as well.
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  #94  
Old May 12th, 2008, 11:02 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Isn't a dead trigger distinctly different than a "click"?
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  #95  
Old May 12th, 2008, 11:03 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Yes, it is. And what's your point?
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  #96  
Old May 12th, 2008, 11:20 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
This is interesting.
I wish there was some sort of dummy round that could trigger these malfunctions. I suppose one could underload a few rounds, and mix them in while training. These could result in incomplete extraction. However, you wouldn't want a squib so weak that it left the barrel obstructed. That would be potentially disastrous. The dangers are severe enough that I don't even want to attempt it.
You can have a friend mix some dummy rounds into a magazine for you to suprise you, but this would only ever result in a type 1, which requires no quick check because the dry press is the indicator for the malfunction.

I want a technique that I can accurately reproduce in practice sessions.

I wonder if there is a reliable source for dummy loads. I think it's pretty easy to avoid a squib. I think with even one grain of powder, versus say seven in a 9mm load I am familiar with, the bullet will have no problem clearing the chamber. I agree though, that would be cause for concern. Moreover, I think you would be most likely to end up type 2 malfunctions with such loads and type 2's seem the easiest to me to spot and clear.
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  #97  
Old May 12th, 2008, 11:21 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Yes, it is. And what's your point?

I guess I am asking if it is not unreasonable for each to cause a different trained response.
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  #98  
Old May 13th, 2008, 09:23 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,070
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
This Krav Maga stuff really is ridiculous.


Check out Tiger Chung Lee:


I love how the bad guy target is an orange ninja. That's sweet. And that cheerleading pyramid at the end is just awesome.

Korean SWAT:


I can't believe their snipers have PSG1s and AIs. Their sniper rifles are worth more than their helicopters.
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  #99  
Old May 14th, 2008, 07:41 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,487
Oh man, that ninja target is priceless.
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  #100  
Old May 14th, 2008, 07:55 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,070
This is good.

More Tiger Chung Lee:


I wish the beer bottle footage were more extensive. The clips I've seen in the past have these guys breaking multiple beer bottles over their heads in addition to punching the bottles and the sideways Hassan Chops to the bottles. I always crack up too whenever I see the Korean dudes breaking up the beer because the bottles have "HITE" or "OB" on the labels, which adds that special touch of authenticity.

Being a Korean, I kinda dig this Kung Fu Theatre stuff. But I wish they mixed in some shooting with the tai chi action. Use the Karate Kid moves when the fighting is really close, gain some distance, and then tag the bad guys with some shooting. It would be a deadly combo. Something like this:

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