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  #1  
Old May 5th, 2008, 09:37 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
KI6BCA
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
Shotgun 260 at Gunsite Academy

I spent another 5 days in Paulden, Arizona (just North of Prescott), this time to take Defensive Shotgun 260.

Unfortunately, there are not too many photos as I spent much of the down time in between drills recovering and rehydrating.

Drills ranged from 7 yards up to 100 yards with bird shot, buck shot and slugs.

There were seven Benelli shotguns present... an M1 a couple M2s and M4s... a Mossburg and a bunch of 870s.





Hans Vang has a shot nearby and spent some time at the class giving advice... but mostly pimping his guns. He is quite the character.

We practiced American carry:


African carry:


Also low ready, outdoor ready and indoor ready. Of course there were many drills getting into a shooting position from all of the above.

We worked on 90 degree turns to the left and to the right. And 180 degree turn (left and right).


We started with "shoot 2, load 2" regardless of the magazine capacity to force people to practice loading under pressure. After a while it changed to "load what you shoot".

We did one day outdoor simulator, one night outdoor simulator and one indoor simulator.

Going in:


Looking for "badguys". No... I don't look comfortable in all these photos. Part of it is from my attempt to section the doorways without showing myself. And part of it is the process of learning. The instuctor follows the student and offers help as needed. Different doors swung different directions. Some opened easily, others had internal springs and swung shut.








We also practiced moving while shooting and loading while shooting.
Then shooting, moving and loading to and from cover.



And a little taste of working as a team covering each other as they move to and from cover points.



The Scrambler is seven stations with targets ranging from 65-110 yards. The record (with a a Carbine) 36 secs.

1st:


2nd, 3rd and 4th(prone from box on right):


I didn't get any photos of the last stations.

The final test:
Five single shots 1 target at 7 yards from low ready (total 5 secs)
Five single shots 1 target at 15 yards from low ready (total 7.5 secs)
Three shots 3 targets at 10 yards from low ready (total 2.5 secs)
Shoot 2, load 2, shoot 2 (total 15 secs)
Five single shots at 35 yards from low ready (total 10 secs)
Five single shots at 50 yards from low ready (total 15 secs)

The first ones were with bird or buck shot on steel and any hit counted. The last two were with slugs and on paper. Normal scoring rules.



The little blue box is a shot activated timer. It gave total time and splits for each shot in the sequence.

In this shoot-off we started seated. Jump up grab your gun and shoot the red or blue targets at about 15 yards (buckshot) but not the yellow "hostage". Then select slug and shoot the 50 yards target in the distance.





Last edited by traveltoad : May 6th, 2008 at 04:59 AM.
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  #2  
Old May 5th, 2008, 09:51 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Fucking awesome.

Did you work on transitions in the shoot house?
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  #3  
Old May 6th, 2008, 05:04 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
You mean transition to pistol? Yes. We worked on that... I think late Tuesday (they all kind of ran together). From that point on we were expected to transition to pistol anytime there was a problem with the shotgun.
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  #4  
Old May 6th, 2008, 05:09 AM
nosivad_bor nosivad_bor is offline
Rob Davison
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,051
Looks interesting.

I've wondered are you using real ammunition in these "look for the bad guy" drills? I guess same question for the entire camp. Seems like there are several issues with using lead bullets from pollution to accidents.
____________________
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1999 Discovery 1

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  #5  
Old May 6th, 2008, 05:15 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
KI6BCA
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
It's the real deal.

Part of the reason for "shoot 2, load 2" was to be more able to end drills empty. Instructors were watching closely to see if everyone handled the shotgun safely. After the first day it was load what you shoot. Live ammo. No bullshit. I have a few scabs on my arms and legs from rebounding buckshot at the closer ranges.
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  #6  
Old May 6th, 2008, 07:23 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
This trip was also the first outing for my new Russell PH boots. I wore them for the seven hour drive to Prescott, all day everyday during class and for the seven hour drive home. In a word... awesome.

I have a wide foot in the toe box area but "normal" width in the heal area. Something about this has always caused pain in my heals on long drives while wearing shoes. This has also allowed my heal to move around in a shoe and caused my socks to slide down into the boot/shoe and bunch up around my heal. The Russells did not have either of these problems.

My boots have the standard Huez sole which is thin. They are great for walking and jogging, offering great feel, but I do not think that I would want to run long distances in them. Which is not a problem as I did not purchase them as running shoes.

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  #7  
Old May 6th, 2008, 08:49 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosivad_bor
Looks interesting.

I've wondered are you using real ammunition in these "look for the bad guy" drills? I guess same question for the entire camp. Seems like there are several issues with using lead bullets from pollution to accidents.


This aint paintball.
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  #8  
Old May 6th, 2008, 08:56 AM
nosivad_bor nosivad_bor is offline
Rob Davison
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,051
Wasn't sure if it was frangible ammunition. That place has to have a lot of lead contamination.
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1999 Discovery 1

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  #9  
Old May 6th, 2008, 09:27 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
Frangible is use in the pistol classes in the simulators.
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  #10  
Old May 6th, 2008, 10:57 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosivad_bor
Wasn't sure if it was frangible ammunition. That place has to have a lot of lead contamination.


Actually a place like that in it's given location is a relatively low-risk site for groundwater and soil, especially if the usage doesn't change.

I've done large scale clean-ups of shooting ranges that were developed for residential use and while the excavation and removal was expensive, the actual health risk was very very low.

I also studied the clean up of Camp Edwards in Massachusetts which operated for almost a century and issues with perchlorate and other contaminants of concern far exceeded the problems with lead and we are talking about millions upon millions more rounds then have ever been fired at gunsite.
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  #11  
Old May 6th, 2008, 11:05 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by traveltoad
This trip was also the first outing for my new Russell PH boots. I wore them for the seven hour drive to Prescott, all day everyday during class and for the seven hour drive home. In a word... awesome.

I have a wide foot in the toe box area but "normal" width in the heal area. Something about this has always caused pain in my heals on long drives while wearing shoes. This has also allowed my heal to move around in a shoe and caused my socks to slide down into the boot/shoe and bunch up around my heal. The Russells did not have either of these problems.

My boots have the standard Huez sole which is thin. They are great for walking and jogging, offering great feel, but I do not think that I would want to run long distances in them. Which is not a problem as I did not purchase them as running shoes.


I feel like I'm going to have a pair of PHs for the rest of my life.

I'm very happy with my other Russells but I think there's a special formula that comes into play with the PH. These are, like you said, one of the most comfortable pair of shoes I have ever owned. They are up to the tasks I use them for and it's like a luxury to wear them.

Check out this pic:



That's taken after a long day of walking about 10 miles in the rolling foothills quail hunting in Arizona. What's unique about this pic is that I'm still wearing my boots. Normally after an outing like that you want to tear your boots off as soon as you get home and let your feet relax. All I've done is untie the PHs. That's how nice these boots are. Had I been in the steeper rockier terrain I would have been wearing my Russell TLCs or I would have suffered, but at the end of the day the TLCs come off fast. The PHs stay on and I wear them out to dinner.
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  #12  
Old May 6th, 2008, 11:16 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
Aaron so how did you carry extra ammunition? After the class, what are your opinions on the matter?
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  #13  
Old May 6th, 2008, 12:30 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
KI6BCA
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomaskimura
Aaron so how did you carry extra ammunition? After the class, what are your opinions on the matter?

At Gunsite, students are encouraged to practice the way they will fight. So if at 2am you are going to grab your gun and a belt and a bag of ammo then great, that is how you should train.

I added an ammo cuff to the stock and I loaded from that for all drills. If I ran out of ammo (5 + 5) I transitioned to my pistol to complete the drill. After drills I reloaded the loops from the bag I carried on my belt.

I really don't like the ammo cuff. And I don't really like the receiver mounted side saddles I saw on the various guns, but I think they are necessary. Even with an extended magazine I think you need to be able to change what you shoot from your primary load to a secondary or back-up load. I feel that you also need to be able to grab one thing and be ready.
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  #14  
Old May 7th, 2008, 10:33 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
N6BZ
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
That's a rough reality. I don't know which one I hate more, the love cuff for the stock or the side saddle. Certainly doesn't seem like there's a decent manufacture for any of that stuff.

What are you thoughts on slings now?
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  #15  
Old May 7th, 2008, 12:14 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
KI6BCA
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
And for me the love cuff is even worse because I have to turn it upside down to shoot left handed.

I think (and remember I am a newbie) that a plain ol' carry strap is all that is needed. For home defense I think an arguement could be made for no strap at all. I may even take mine off.
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  #16  
Old May 13th, 2008, 09:35 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I found an alternative to the Sidesaddle yestery:


129.jpg


It's identical in concept to the Sidesaddle and mounts to the gun in a nearly identical manner. However, the "loops" are machined aluminum rather than molded polymer. This version is available in four-, six-, and eight-shot versions. Here's what it looks like mounted to the Super 90:


130.jpg


There is also a version for the buttstock:




This butt cuff is designed for the non-ComfortTech version of the Super 90's buttstock. Here's what it looks like mounted:




There's no drilling required to mount this butt cuff, as it replaces the rear sling swivel on the standard Super 90 buttstock. The butt cuff is limited to four shots, presumably because of the cantilever design.

I haven't played with these shellholders in person so I don't know how well they hold the shells. But I definitely like the idea of them. They're trimmer than the plastic, Sidesaddle-style loops with open centers and, unlike the Sidesaddle loops, these loops are rounded at the edges. One thing I don't like about the Sidesaddle-style holders is that they're sharp when shells are not in the holders. These loops are also smaller than the Sidesaddle-style loops.

These are available from Mesa Tactical in Costa Mesa:

http://www.mesatactical.com/

As you would expect, the company makes mounts for the 870, Mossberg, Super 90, etc.

Just some options. Not a recommendation by any means.
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  #17  
Old May 13th, 2008, 08:34 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Peep this:


This is an interesting approach. The Super 90's intertia-locking system has no gas system to foul and the entire mechanism is pretty free of fine tolerances, so I guess it would be resistant to fouling. But I wonder how many shots the Super 90 will handle before it starts to choke with blackpowder. I wish somebody would do some kind of endurance test with blackpowder, if only to show how dirty the Super 90 can get before it starts choking.
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  #18  
Old July 23rd, 2008, 06:09 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I just heard of this load today:


The concept of "buck and ball" is hardly new. In fact, it's centuries old. And duplex loads are very common for shotguns.

But what surprised me was the size of the pellets there. That ball is looking very big compared to the hull. I did some Googling and found this:

http://www.dkgtrading.com/centurion/cenbuck.html

The ball is .650" and the six bucket pellets are no. 1 buck. I'm stunned. That's a lot. Just the six pellets of no. 1 buck are nothing to sneeze at. Add a .650" ball into the mix and that's a shitload.

This load goes for about a dollar per shot:

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=377126

Not bad at all.

I searched online for some patterning results with this load and found this page:

http://www.gunweek.com/2007/feature0815.html

This stuff seems to pattern very tight. In that guy's shotgun, he was getting 2" patterns at 15 yards. AT 25 yards he got about a 5" wide, elongated pattern. This might be too tight for me. If I'm shooting a shotgun that patterns that tight, I might as well be shooting a rifle that punches through hard targets, recoils less, holds 20 rounds instead of seven, reloads more easily, and reaches out to as far as I can identify targets. The reason I shoot a shotgun in the first place is forgiveness. I can shoot the shotgun slightly faster than I can the rifle, and the forgiveness is welcomed in situations like low light, mobile targets, and mobile shooter.

But I must admit that I am fascinated by this load. I wonder if that .650" ball can reliably hit man-sized targets at 50 yards and beyond. I wonder if the biggie ball even goes to point of aim. I think it would be fun spending a day playing around with this stuff and seeing what it could and couldn't do.
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  #19  
Old November 6th, 2008, 03:11 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
I spent yesterday out on a nearby ranch where I have a project going.


It's fire season here in Southern California and the ranch rules prohibit any vehicles with catalytic convertors so my ride for the day was a Kawasaki Mule:


I've never used one of these before but they're relatively useful. 4WD with a low range and locking rear diff. The bed is relatively large.
And the hood houses this convenient compartment:


Which is a good spot for something like this:


I have a "square range" out on the ranch which I can use whenever I like. The old stock pond works well for 360 degrees of shooting.


I thought I'd head over to zero and pattern the new gun. I'm going to be taking the shotgun course at Front Sight in the winter and I wanted to start getting familiar with my particular weapon.

I brought along some IPSC cardboard silhouettes and added an aiming diamond to one and set it up on the stand at one end of the "range".






Here's what I brought to shoot:


HK stamped early M1 Super 90:


This gun features the pistol grip stock and ghostring combat sights.

Front post:


Rear hooded sight assembly:


Some prefer express or open sights for a combat shotgun. I like the ghostring peep. Both will work.

I scored this M1 Super 90 on Calguns and I was lucky because it had the factory magazine extension:


It also came with a Viking Tactical qucik-adjust sling:


I probably wouldn't have bought this sling, but after using it, I'm digging it. I'm going to keep it on for Front Sight.

I keep the sling stowed Louis Awerbuck style with a piece of velcro:


First order of business was to zero the M1 Super 90 with slugs at a good combat distance. I decided to just shoot the length of the range.
I brought along some Winchester HP slugs. Nothing too special:


I shot from prone off my pack:


Here's the sight picture:


Two rounds down range:


Produced two hits in the head box.
One right in the cranial-occular cavity:


That was nice, but I was aiming post over the diamond.
These hits were high.
I decided to try to adjust the elevation:


And fire again:


What I found was that it seemed as if the inherent misalignment of the Benelli sights made if very difficult to adjust for windage and elevation independently of each other. It's as if the sights adjust along a diagonal. I also found that because of the low comb, although I had a good sight picture, my natural point of aim was higher than with a carbine. In order to put the rounds on the diamond I needed to aim target over post.

Eventually I got things figured out:


After that it was time to pattern buckshot.
I brought some Winchester 3" 00:


And I put out some more IPSC targets mounted to boxes so that I wouldn't shoot up my wooden stands:


I didn't bother with A-range patterning and instead started off with the B/C at about 15 yards:


The pattern was very good:


All 15 pellets were good hits. 11 out of 15 pellets were in the A-zone on the IPSC target. That's awesome. My M1 Super 90 has a fixed cylinder choke. So outside of changing loads, my pattern has limited adjustment, but with that first print I knew it was all good.

Next I stepped back to about 25 yds:


Again the pattern was very good:


13 out of 15 pellets hit the torso size target.
That's excellent.

I was happy with the patterns so I moved on to some shooting drills with bird shot. I played around with select slug and malfunctions. I'm now feeling like the M1 Super 90 is the Glock of shotguns. It's extremely reliable and very user friendly. The manual of arms is very good. I was loving it.

After that I setup the low box targets on either side of the single stand target and practiced transitions to pistol with the Glock 23.


I loaded two rounds into the M1 Super 90 and from low ready engaged both of the box targets on either side of the stand.


I would then point in on the middle target and on pressing the dead trigger would step to the side and observe the bolt locked back on an empty chamber indicating an emergency reload.
From there I brought the M1 Super 90 down to a slung postion with my firing hand and brought my support hand into count 1 of the pistol draw on top of the shotgun buttstock:


From there I brought my firing hand into count 1 establishing my firing grip on the pistol while my support handed continued to secure the shotgun in count 1 position:


Draw:


And after action:


I did this drill about 10 times and got it working pretty smooth. I did it both from a stationary postion, only moving during after-action and also did it on the diagonal approach with constant movement.

It's a new game for me, but it's coming along nicely and I can't wait to take the shotgun to school.
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  #20  
Old November 6th, 2008, 03:30 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
After the shotgun session was over I started driving across the ranch at about dusk.

I happened to see a coyote off across one of the pastures.
He was way out there.
Every other time I've been on the ranch I've brought my .25-06 for coyotes and haven't seen any.
Today was shotgun day, so I left the Model 70 at home.
...and now I was seeing coyotes.

I kept driving and I spotted three more running across a field of to my left about to cross the road. As I crested a low hill I saw them off to the right booking out of the pasture. I locked up the mule and skidded to a halt. I jumped out but my shotgun was unloaded and stowed.


But I was wearing my compact Glock...
I was hoping that the trailing coyote might pause briefly and look back as they often do, but they were already pretty far out.
As soon as I jumped out and started to draw, the last one did just what I guessed. I quickly held my sight picture about a foot over and focused hard on the front sight. Quick compressed suprise break and solid hold over follow through without even reset.


...and the coyote went down.
You can just see the mule parked where I took the shot.
111 paces so roughly 330 ft.
.40 S&W 180gr ball ammo.
Standing.
I ended up running up and shooting a finisher behind the left ear at about 10 yards, but the coyote went down pretty hard.




Not bad for a compact pistol.

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  #21  
Old November 6th, 2008, 04:18 PM
hochung hochung is offline
Ho Chung
W6HC
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
Posts: 2,006
100 yards. DAMN!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Not bad for a compact pistol.

it's not the pistol. LOL
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  #22  
Old November 6th, 2008, 04:30 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Congratulations on the Super 90. That was a sweet find.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I brought along some Winchester HP slugs. Nothing too special:


I shot from prone off my pack:


Firing those slugs from prone must have been brutal. I've shot slugs from the bench, as well as sitting and kneeling. But I don't think I've ever shot slugs from prone. I've got to try it the next time we play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
What I found was that it seemed as if the inherent misalignment of the Benelli sights made if very difficult to adjust for windage and elevation independently of each other. It's as if the sights adjust along a diagonal. I also found that because of the low comb, although I had a good sight picture, my natural point of aim was higher than with a carbine. In order to put the rounds on the diamond I needed to aim target over post.

My best guess would be that the rear sight's aperture moved sideways in its dovetail when you loosened that top screw. Just a guess. I think with the ghost-ringed Super 90, you have to check the alignment notch on the aperture and note its position whenever you adjust elevation, just in case the aperture moves sideways in its dovetail when the set screw is loosened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
After that it was time to pattern buckshot.
I brought some Winchester 3" 00:


Damn, more punishment.
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  #23  
Old November 6th, 2008, 05:05 PM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 864
Damn, Jack. Nice shot!
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  #24  
Old November 6th, 2008, 11:07 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
Since you don't need that pre-64 Model 70 CSG anymore you can give it to me.

Nice shooting.
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  #25  
Old November 8th, 2008, 05:42 AM
Roseann
 
Posts: n/a
Nice hat choice, Aaron.



Will have to blog that on the OJ site.

One of these days we are going to do a Gunsite weekend, meanwhile we practice on our own 'open range.'

Footwear: PHs are fantastic. I love mine, they have been hunting in southern Az, and with me all over Kenya and Tanzania in all sorts of terrain.

Looking very white (pink) with Joseph Shuel of Il 'Ngwesi, Samburu, Laikipia, where I work on a project:

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