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  #1  
Old January 12th, 2009, 06:59 PM
sboada
 
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Home Defense Shotgun

Anyone have any recommendations for a 12Ga home defense shotgun. Most likely just going to stay by the bedside. Right now I like to idea of a pistol grip sans stock for size. I understand the accuracy issues without the stock, but will accept this given the range at which I may have to engage. I'm looking to Mossberg's JIC line right now, and for the price, it looks like a good fit.
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  #2  
Old January 12th, 2009, 09:32 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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I like this one:

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  #3  
Old January 13th, 2009, 04:13 AM
sboada
 
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Benelli?
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  #4  
Old January 13th, 2009, 05:20 AM
JMH JMH is offline
Jonathan Hanson
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Tucson, more or less.
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For God's sake get something with a stock. You're fooling yourself if you don't think you can miss at eight feet with a pistol-grip shotgun under fight-or-flight stress.

Big budget - HK/Benelli by all means

Small budget - Mossberg 500
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  #5  
Old January 13th, 2009, 06:14 AM
tweak tweak is offline
Darich Runyan
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southeast Virginia
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Couldn't agree more about having a full stock, it is a must, even if you go with one with the pistol grip included.

The Benelli M4 is really nice and very fast but a bit pricey. The Mossberg 590 is a great shotgun for the money and it comes standard with ghost ring sites and a capacity of 8+1. I have both and like the 590 as much as the Benelli.

Cheers
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  #6  
Old January 13th, 2009, 10:30 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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I like Jonathan's picks for the shotgun.

If you want to spend the money for a very nice shotgun, get the Benelli. I prefer the M1 and M2 over the M3 or M4. You live in VA. If you truly want to go all out, get a Benelli Entry Gun. Just pay the $200 NFA tax and you have the combat shotgun supreme.

If you just want something that goes bang, I like the Mossberg. I much prefer the Mossberg to the Remington 870 because of the Mossberg's tang safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sboada
Right now I like to idea of a pistol grip sans stock for size. I understand the accuracy issues without the stock, but will accept this given the range at which I may have to engage.

Missing with a shotgun is a lot easier than people believe. If you don't believe it, you should try patterning a shotgun at conversational ranges. You'd be surprised how small the pattern is.

The very general rule for pattern sizes with cylinder-bore shotguns and buckshot is about 1" of pattern size for every yard of range. At across-the-bedroom distances, the shot pattern on the target will be very small. This distance is the so-called "A" range, where the pattern is tight enough that the user must treat the shot pattern as a single projectile, i.e., the pattern at this distance is tight enough that it is just as easy to miss with the shotgun as it is with a rifle.
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  #7  
Old January 13th, 2009, 11:29 AM
ronward ronward is offline
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Hell yes you can miss at 8, 12, even 15 feet. People forget that the shot comes out of the barrel like a string, not like a pie in the face.

Mossberg 590
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  #8  
Old January 13th, 2009, 12:00 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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When the shot charge leaves the muzzle, it's the same size as the muzzle. This makes sense from an intuitive standpoint, and yet many people still believe that the blast from a shotgun is huge even at contact distances. Perhaps it's from watching movies? I'm not sure.

Here's a pic in case you doubt the size of the shot charge at close range:


It will some be distance before that charge opens up.
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  #9  
Old January 13th, 2009, 12:11 PM
sboada
 
Posts: n/a
Thanks for the feedback. I've spent quite a bit of time with the Benelli overseas and love it. Not looking to drop $1k on one yet though. I am familiar with the ballistics and issues of a pistol grip, but have shot enough that I am comfortable with it. As I build the arsenal, a stocked gun will make an appearance, just not yet. Space and small size take precedence for now.

As far as fight/flight is concerned if you train enough and build muscle memory, you can mitigate the effects of adrenenaline on your coordination, and thus shot groupings. Of this I am sure...

Thanks again for the input.
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  #10  
Old January 13th, 2009, 01:07 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Oh God.

I just saw a pic of this "JIC" model from Mossberg:


This thing comes with a PVC time capsule for burying? Like as in "Just In Case" of Armageddon? I think this gun is ridiculous.

Keep in mind that the tang safety is out of reach with the pistol grip:


Mossberg has so many nicer models to choose from. I think this 500 Persuader is a nice choice:


This 500 Persuader is a little on the longer side with the 20" barrel, but it has an eight-shot mag and it's a very clean gun. The various military-style Mossbergs with the handguards and other reinforcements are also nice guns, but they're bulky in comparison to Mossbergs like this Persuader.

In addition to the tang safety, another thing I like about the Mossbergs is that the Speed-Feed stocks are available for them. This is a Speed-Feed stock:


The Speed-Feed stock holds four shotshells within the buttstock. Unlike the various butt cuffs and Sidesaddles, the additional rounds in the Speed-Feed stock do not protrude from the weapon. The disadvantage of the Speed-Feed is that it holds only four shots, but I'll gladly take those four shots when they're basically contained inside the weapon like that.
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  #11  
Old January 13th, 2009, 02:06 PM
ronward ronward is offline
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I don't know much about adrenaline and the fight/flight reflex to say anything for certain. However I have hunted enough in the field to know that the jolt of a surprise covey can be enough to throw me off aim inside 10 yards in a safe and open shooting environment. I can't imagine trying to be effective with a pistol grip riot gun like the Mossberg above in trying to defend life and property inside my house in the middle of the night, out of a dead sleep. My in-room defense weapon is a 40 cal SIG P229 and I'd likely not be effective with that either until fully awake. Food for thought though, about training for the surprise midnight intruder.
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  #12  
Old January 13th, 2009, 04:53 PM
tweak tweak is offline
Darich Runyan
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southeast Virginia
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Just curious, but what is it you like about the M2 over the M4?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
You live in VA. If you truly want to go all out, get a Benelli Entry Gun. Just pay the $200 NFA tax and you have the combat shotgun supreme.

I looked into this but to be honest, I think the M4 looks better than the M2 Entry plus, the paperwork is a pain and it can take up to 6 months before you can pickup your gun.
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  #13  
Old January 13th, 2009, 05:01 PM
JMH JMH is offline
Jonathan Hanson
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Tucson, more or less.
Posts: 274
Quote:
As far as fight/flight is concerned if you train enough and build muscle memory, you can mitigate the effects of adrenenaline on your coordination, and thus shot groupings. Of this I am sure...

Good luck with the training and muscle memory. Give me a stocked shotgun. Ten inches isn't going to make any difference in storage in a house.

What exactly are you referring to by the "ballistics" of a pistol grip?
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  #14  
Old January 13th, 2009, 06:15 PM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by JMH
Good luck with the training and muscle memory. Give me a stocked shotgun. Ten inches isn't going to make any difference in storage in a house.

Agreed. Aimed fire is always preferred. I notice that the professionals, with very rare and specific exceptions, choose to use long arms with stocks extended - including shotguns. The M1 was my choice, though with a standard stock - the pistol grip makes it evil here in California.

At any rate, you can add a full stock later if you stick with your pistolero approach for now.

-N
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  #15  
Old January 13th, 2009, 06:20 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tweak
Just curious, but what is it you like about the M2 over the M4?

The M1 and M2 are basically the same guns.

The M4 is a different animal. The M4 does not operate on the interia-locking principle as the M1 and M2 do. The M4 is gas-assisted. Check out this dissembled M4:


You can see the two short-stroke operating rods below the forcing cone area of the barrel. These operating rods do not exist on the M1 and M2.

I prefer the simpler and more elegant (from my way of looking at things) method of operation on the M1 and M2. I don't fit my shotgun with butt cuff, Sidesaddle, night vision optics, Picatinny forend, foregrip, forend light, laser designators, etc., so I don't have the short-cycling problems that the military might have had with the M1 or M2.

I think the M4 also looks a little busy (again, from my way of looking at things). I don't dig the telescoping buttstock and M1913 rail on top of the receiver. The M4's long, one-piece magazine takes away one theoretical disadvantage of the multi-piece magazines on the M1 and M2. However, the M4's magazine hanger is thus placed near the muzzle and the giant acorn nut that caps the magazine is near the muzzle as well. The result is very Mossberg-looking to me. The M1 and M2 look cleaner and sleeker to me.

I'm sure the M4 works just fine. I just prefer the M1 and M2, which work just fine for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweak
I looked into this but to be honest, I think the M4 looks better than the M2 Entry plus, the paperwork is a pain and it can take up to 6 months before you can pickup your gun.

I'd wait the six months. I can't get a short-barreled shotgun in California, no matter what the wait. If I could get a short-barreled shotgun in California, I'd gladly wait the wait and pay the $200 and get this:


That's my favorite Super 90 configuration, with 14" barrel, five-shot magazine, open sights, and standard buttstock.

But I'd probably get two Entry Guns. One would have the standard buttstock and the other would have the pistol-grip stock. Both would have 14" barrels, five-shot mags, open sights, and Heckler & Koch Inc. importation marks on the receiver.
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  #16  
Old January 13th, 2009, 06:31 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
The M1 was my choice, though with a standard stock - the pistol grip makes it evil here in California.

The pistol-gripped Super 90 is legal in California.

Check out:

http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/genchar2.php

In relevant part, the code reads:

Quote:
12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:

...

6. A semiautomatic shotgun that has both of the following:
A. A folding or telescoping stock.
B. A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon, thumbhole stock, or vertical handgrip.
7. A semiautomatic shotgun that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine.

8. Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder.

The M1 and M2 Super 90s with pistol-grip buttstocks do not have folding or telescoping butts.

The M1 and M2 will not accept detachable magazines.

And the M1 and M2 do not have revolving cylinders.

The way I read the statute, an M1 Super 90 with a pistol-grip buttstock is not an AW under California law. You might be thinking of the now-expired federal AW ban, which did ban pistol-grip buttstocks together with a magazine capacity greater than five shots. That's gone now.

What's funny is that I think this Taurus Judge may be an AW under California law:


It's a shotgun with a revolving cylinder.
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  #17  
Old January 13th, 2009, 07:03 PM
sboada
 
Posts: n/a
Right, I meant ballistics of the round itself, in conjunction with the pistol grip can lend itself to inaccuracy. I am definitely not debating this issue. I'd carry a long gun to a fight any day of the week. It's just in this instance the smaller the better, and believe it or not, an extra 10" or so may make a difference. Long story.

I do like the idea of a folding/collapsable stock though. Any thoughts/experience on these? I've used the Benelli with collapsable stock, but understand that's not an option, and probably couldn't afford it if it was at the moment.
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  #18  
Old January 13th, 2009, 08:05 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Oh shit. This is a sweet video:


Makes the punt gun seem puny in comparison.
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  #19  
Old January 13th, 2009, 09:28 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Location: Torrance, CA
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I love these Old School HK ads:


That ad was from the days when SWAT teams wore ski caps. Almost as old as this:

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  #20  
Old January 13th, 2009, 09:52 PM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 178
I like the early days of LAPD S.W.A.T. Shoot till everyone's dead and the house catches fire.

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  #21  
Old January 15th, 2009, 11:22 AM
tweak tweak is offline
Darich Runyan
W4DMR
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southeast Virginia
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
The M1 and M2 are basically the same guns.

The M4 is a different animal. The M4 does not operate on the interia-locking principle as the M1 and M2 do. The M4 is gas-assisted. Check out this dissembled M4:


The M4 does have a few more components but it is fast! Of course, any of these discussed will be excellent home defense guns.

Great S.W.A.T video. I actually used to watch that show when I was a kid. Funny.
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  #22  
Old January 15th, 2009, 12:25 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
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Everything you'll ever need to know about selecting a weapon for home defense is right here.
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  #23  
Old January 15th, 2009, 05:16 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
This guy has a nice stash.


I think all of his choices are solid.

At top is a Remington 870.

Second is a High Standard. Note the safety button is in front of the trigger guard like the Model 12 rather than at the rear like the 870 and Super 90. I like the tang safety best of all, but you're going to guy a gun with a BB gun safety, it should if possible be at the front of the trigger guard where the trigger finger can more easily depress the button.

Next six are Ithaca 37 variants. All solid.

I don't know what the last one is. It's some coach gun. I love these coach guns.

Note the double triggers. These are sweet. The combat shotgun is a very range-dependent weapon, and behaves differently at different ranges. In the A range, the shot charge is tight enough that the weapon behaves like a single-projectile weapon. At the B range, the shot charge is open enough that there's some forgiveness, but the pattern is tight enough that the weapon will still deliver a terminal blow to the target. In the C range, the pattern is open enough that the a single projectile like a slug is required to deliver a terminal blow to the target.

On the coach gun, you have instant load selection with the double triggers. There's no select slug drill with the double triggers. Just load one buckshot load in one chamber (usually the right) and a slug in the other chamber (usually the left). For buckshot, just pull the forward trigger. For the slug, just pull the rear trigger.

Note also the physical length of the coach gun. It's much shorter than a repeater with the same barrel length. If you were to score a coach gun with 18" barrels, it would pretty much be as short as you would want a long gun to be. The coach guns are so short that most manufacturers fit them with 20" barrels as standard.

Slap a leather butt cuff on the coach gun and you have an additional six shots at the ready. This is a very serious weapon. Don't think you're undergunned because your coach gun doesn't have high speed low drag Picatinny rails or a major league infidel red dot sight or some .mil forend light like this guy's stash:


This is some more sweetness:


It looks like a Mossberg with 20" and eight-shot magazine. Love the cheapie blued finish and walnut-stained mystery wood. And normally I don't like gold triggers, but on this Mossberg the gold trigger is looking good. This is a very clean gun.

If you want a little more old school, there's the 1897:


This is a Norchinko copy of the 1897. I think these were dirt cheap when they were available. I love the short and dinky small receivers on these 1897s.
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  #24  
Old January 16th, 2009, 07:31 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Some more Winchester sweetness:


Beautiful.
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  #25  
Old January 18th, 2009, 02:47 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,290
If you can't afford a new M1, look for a used one.

Another option is the Beretta 1201FP. It uses the same method of operation as the Benelli M1. I see them on the used market occasionally.
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