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  #51  
Old February 7th, 2009, 09:14 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Interesting.
I'm curious to know where you've learned the obligations and discretions of gunshops. I don't know everything so that's why I want to call the BATF.

However, since I do hold an FFL and receive literature from the BATF, I know that an 01FFL isn't a business license. It's a lot more.
And I believe that 01FFLs have certain obligations. For instance, I believe they can't refuse to provide for a PPT.

I don't really think this is a No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service kind of issue, but I'm going to find out.

I know because I've asked. I've also done some checking myself.

I surprised that you think it isn't that kind of issue. I think it is quite obvious that it is.

As far as the PPT-yes that is an obligation under their FFL that they have to agree to. Do you think their FFL limits their ability to decide not to sell to Californians?

Those I've talked with state they just don't want the hassle of trying to keep up with our wacky laws and what is legal and what isn't. One 1911 meets our drop test and another doesn't. Then they have to deal with a possible return as the buyer can't legally purchase the weapon.
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  #52  
Old February 9th, 2009, 08:00 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greghirst
Those I've talked with state they just don't want the hassle of trying to keep up with our wacky laws and what is legal and what isn't. One 1911 meets our drop test and another doesn't. Then they have to deal with a possible return as the buyer can't legally purchase the weapon.

Which is a valid concern and yet completely irrelevant to a transaction completed entirely in Arizona. California is not a part of this sale in any way. It's a transfer between and 01FFL and an 03FFL.
It's about as simple as it gets.
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  #53  
Old February 9th, 2009, 09:49 AM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
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Join Date: Nov 2005
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As soon as I heard this cow declare "I'm not selling you this gun because you're from California" I immediately walked out of the store. This woman wasn't to be reasoned with.

Her approach, basically coming out swinging, is remarkable for a number of reasons. I agree with Greg that it's very likely this store has done nothing wrong and may refuse service to anyone. However, why take such a confrontational approach? All that needed to be said was, "I apologize, but we're just too concerned about California liability." There is no reason to take such a hard line. The guns in question were both almost a hundred years old; it's not like we were asking to buy some AK-74.

Moreover, my real problem with this woman is this: it's completely obvious that this woman is a life member in the Guns Forever ra-ra-ra, no one better infringe upon my rights as a great American camp. Yet despite her emphatic support of gun rights, in fact, what she has done here is to go above and beyond the laws she so vehemently hates. The California legislator would cheer this policy- their laws have effectively made it harder for a California resident to get a gun. I understand that California gun laws are confusing and difficult. The same is true of interstate transfers and the rules of the BATFE. I also appreciate how unsettling potential liability is. Still, if you're clearly such an advocate of gun rights, don't enforce gun control laws that don't exist simply because you're stupid and afraid, figure out the laws and go above and beyond.

This store is pretty much a lost cause. I highly doubt they have a computer in the store or that any of them know how to use one. It's pretty clear that this store has been around since 1960 and gave up on trying to figure out the law shortly thereafter and stuck with doing what they know. While their walls are adorned with C96s, Triple Locks, Artillery Lugers, and Trap-Door Springfields none of which are for sale, the rest of their inventory is pretty much junk.

I won't be going back to this store and I certainly won't miss them if they close.
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  #54  
Old February 9th, 2009, 12:49 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Here's an interesting update:

I called the Phoenix field office of the BATFE to ask them about the transaction.

They informed me that it is the perogative of the 01FFL to refuse service at their discretion. Any possiblity that the refusal was discriminatory would be a civil issue outside of the BATFE's jurisdiction.

So basically if these people don't want to do business with Californians, they don't have to. Like Tom pointed out, it's a pretty lame position to take for any Pro-Gunner, but if they want to be dicks, nobody is stopping them.

However,...
The BATFE informed me that should an Arizona resident who was not otherwise prohibited from owning the two firearms purchase them from the shop and then later legally transfer them to me, this would NOT be considered a "straw man" purchase as both transactions would be compliant.
So there's still hope that I can score my Model 1917 and Model 1897 combo.
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  #55  
Old February 9th, 2009, 02:19 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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So they would not sell you a gun. Who cares. Get over it.
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  #56  
Old February 9th, 2009, 02:27 PM
thomaskimura thomaskimura is offline
Thomas Kimura
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Fuck you, Dan.

Don't post unless you have some idea of what's being discussed.
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  #57  
Old February 9th, 2009, 02:36 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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They did not want to sell to you clowns. Who cares. What good is it going to do to call XYZ and complain?

It does not matter what their reasoning was for not selling the gun(s). The answer was "no". That seems pretty cut and dry to me....

Gun Broker has a whole page of these guns available if one of you really wants one. I guess it's just easier to complain about not having one, though.
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  #58  
Old February 9th, 2009, 02:57 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchapman
Gun Broker has a whole page of these guns available if one of you really wants one. I guess it's just easier to complain about not having one, though.


Holding a gun in your hand and seeing its actual condition under circumstances where you are authorized to buy cash and carry isn't even remotely the same as surfing gunbroker.

Of course that makes no sense to Dan Chapman because he doesn't know the first fucking thing about buying a worthwhile gun. Just like he doesn't know shit about any other topic that he decides to pollute on the EE bbs. At the end of the day he's just some low-life dirtbag white trash undertaker who spends his time posting endlessly about subjects he doesn't know anything about and webstalking people he's either in love with or despises.

He sure as shit doesn't get buying a 1917 and he has no grasp whatsoever on regulatory issue at hand.

Tom already said it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomaskimura
Fuck you, Dan.

Don't post unless you have some idea of what's being discussed.

That means, "Don't post at all."
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  #59  
Old February 9th, 2009, 03:04 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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Haha. Is Jack just a little butt-hurt? I can't tell.
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  #60  
Old March 6th, 2009, 03:36 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
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I just read this interesting review of the Mossberg 930 SPX.

http://www.weaponevolution.com/forum...read.php?t=167

I don't know that this is any kind of superior option, but it's an interesting shotgun to examine.
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  #61  
Old March 6th, 2009, 07:53 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153

I feel a little envy every time I see the Mossberg's safety. I'm bummed Benelli didn't use a tang safety on the Super 90. If the Super 90 had its safety on the tang and the ejection port on the left side of the receiver, it would be about as close to perfect as a self-loading shotgun could be.

This follower caught my eye:


I really like the nipple on the face of the follower.

My Super 90s have the Scattergun Technologies followers. These are similar in shape to that red follower but are dayglo yellow. I dig the yellow.

My problem is that two of my Scattertech followers have the nipple but the third doesn't. When I scored my third Super 90, I ordered another Scattertech follower and it came without the nipple. Scattertech changed the design and removed the nipple.

I was pissed. The nipple is the best part. When you stick your finger into the magazine, you can tell immediately that you're feeling the follower and not the base of a shotshell.

I'm not sure why Scattertech removed the nipple.
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  #62  
Old March 31st, 2009, 04:09 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
Benelli released the Vinci:

http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/benelli_vinci.php

I think it's bitchin.

All of the operating parts are now contained within the receiver:


The 121 and Super 90 were unique in that pretty much all of the operating parts were contained within the bolt group. That is, except for the recoil spring. The recoil spring was housed within the buttstock and was compressed by a hinged plunger connected to the rear of the bolt carrier. This was not a big deal, for many self-loaders operate in this fashion.

The Vinci now has the recoil spring as part of the bolt group. Benelli refers to this system as "In-Line Inertia Driven". I'm not sure this is purely inline, as the recoil spring is not concentric with the bore axis as it is on the AR. But it's pretty close. But too bad Benelli couldn't shorten the firing pin somehow and have the hammer swing into the bottom of the bolt carrier to hit the firing pin.

The locking arrangement is also changed. The Super 90 uses a locking cam pin that travels within a slot in the bolt carrier. The Vinci uses a stationary locking cam pin and the slot is in the bolt head. The reciprocating bolt head hits the cam pin and twists relative to the bolt carrier. The cam slot also looks to be a different shape than that of the Super 90. I'm guessing the Vinci has a little more bolt bounce with this straighter cam slot, but it should go into battery a little more easily than the Super 90 does.

The buttstock now attaches to the receiver via interrupted locking lugs:


Twist and the buttstock removes. This is very MG42.

So, buttstocks are now quickly interchangeable.

Here's a better pic of the weapon:

http://www.benelliusa.com/assets/sil...n_ct_field.jpg

Benelli moved the BB gun safety from behind the trigger to in front of the trigger. This is where a BB gun safety should be.

Gone also is the Super 90's magazine trip lever. It's now moved to the underside of the weapon on the trigger guard.

Note also that the charging handle is behind the halfway mark of the bolt carrier. In the other pics of the Vinci, you can see that the charging handle sticks out more than the Super 90's charging handle. I'm guessing Benelli moved the Vinci's charging handle rearward to prevent it from hitting ejected hulls.

The bolt release is looking funky to me. I have to wonder if that bolt release performs other functions in addition to releasing the bolt.

I'm really glad Benelli went to the one-piece barrel and receiver design of the 121 and Super Black Eagle. This was one thing that irked me about the Super 90. On the Vinci, changing barrels also includes an automatic change of sights. When fitting a slug barrel for instance, the user can keep the scope mounted onto the slug barrel's receiver. Changing the barrel will automatically change the sights with it, and the sights will always be zeroed for that particular barrel. The same would be true for combat barrels or wingshooting barrels.

Check out page 4/16 of this pdf:

http://www.benelliusa.com/assets/cat...i_Brochure.pdf

The Vinci's magazine tube is detachable. If Benelli wanted to do it, we could have seven-shot, detachable mags for the Vinci.

I am loving this Vinci. It was worth the hype. The only thing that bugs me about the Vinci is that its design prevents the fitment of walnut stocks. I suppose we could have a walnut buttstock, but no walnut forend. But oh well. The Vinci is otherwise so nice that I can live without the walnut.

I had plans for scoring myself a ComforTech M2 Super 90, but I think I'll wait and see what happens with this Vinci. I'm looking forward to a seven-shot magazine, a 24" wingshooting barrel, 18" combat barrel, and so on. If these dreams come true, I might have to score a Vinci.

Right now, I'm wondering which part of the Vinci will be considered the firearm for ATF purposes. Will it be the barreled receiver? Or will it be the trigger group/forend piece? I hope it's the trigger/forend piece so that the barrels will be available separately.
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  #63  
Old March 31st, 2009, 05:29 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,121
You going to order the 26" or 28" barrel?

One of these may find it's way to my house.

[edited for you]
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  #64  
Old March 31st, 2009, 05:32 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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I had plans for scoring myself a ComforTech M2 Super 90, but I think I'll wait and see what happens with this Vinci. I'm looking forward to a seven-shot magazine, a 24" wingshooting barrel, 18" combat barrel, and so on. If these dreams come true, I might have to score a Vinci.
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  #65  
Old March 31st, 2009, 05:36 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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You know you're going to buy one either way.......18", 24", 26", 28"....It's not going to matter to you. You're going to get one.
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  #66  
Old March 31st, 2009, 05:54 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Oh I want one all right. But I don't want a 26" or 28", that's for sure. That's too long for me. I want a 24":


I always crack up at how 28" is the favored barrel length for doubles, and yet 28" is the favored length for repeaters. Huh? Did I miss something? Are people too stupid to realize that a repeater with a 24" barrel is the same length as a double with 28" barrels? I guess so.

It's really hard to say because it's such a new weapon and I don't know what will be available for it, but my realistic dream Vinci (non-NFA type of dream) would probably be a black field model Vinci with:
18" combat barrel with interchangeable chokes and open sights;
24" wingshooting barrel with vent rib (same height as the open sights); and
seven-shot magazine.
That would be nice.

Even nicer would be a left-hand Vinci with the ejection port on the port side of the receiver. The ejection port on a repeating shotgun is much more than merely an ejection port. It's also a loading port. Thus, it should be on the weak side of the weapon, i.e., on the left side of the weapon for a righty.

Look at David and Tom working select-slug drills on their Super 90s:


The standard Super 90 was set up for a righty. But you can see it works better for the lefty.

Tom does malfunction clearances on his Super 90:


He never even loses his firing grip.
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  #67  
Old June 12th, 2009, 04:45 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: VA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee

I went in today to order an AR. I was going to get the Colt. Long story short, I saw the Vinci (not for sale), but mine will be here around October, estimated.
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  #68  
Old June 15th, 2009, 11:13 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Some people on our local pistol club bbs posted this picture and were laughing at it:


I really didn't know what was so funny.

Sure it's wannabe tacticool and all that, but at its heart it's a serious defensive weapon.

The double has many important advantages over the modern repeater that should not be ignored. In the right hands it is an absolute death machine.

First, the double affords the user a very compact overall package because of it's very short receiver. It's lack of a magazine allows for minimal stocking and weight.
Second, a boxlock double is extremely reliable and is every bit the equal or superior of the repeaters in this regard. An extractor gun is the pinnacle of simplicity and effectiveness. Furthermore when equipped with double triggers it has two separate firing mechanisms so that in the event of failure it can be operated as a one shot weapon.
Lastly, the double offers instant load selection. The shotgun is an ammunition dependent weapon and it's versatility comes from the users ability to select and apply the appropriate load. In the case of the double, the user may, if desired , load one slug and one buckshot round in the fashion of the H&H paradox and have those options, quite literally at their fingertips.

The standard double in coachgun proportions is no different.
That weapon was "tactical" before anyone had ever used the term.

The weapon above incorporates two picatinny rails. One for a light and one for an optic or sight.
This may look hokey, but these are very real improvements. Double shotguns, with the exception of drillings, lack a rear sight and are disadvantaged for precision fire. However the addition of this pic rail to the rear of the rib doesn't have to be encumbered with an EoTech or ACOG. A simple BUIS style iron peep would greatly enhance the effectiveness of the weapon.
The light is a tremendous advantage. The pic rail under the bbls allows the user to mount a proper weaponlight instead of juggling a handheld light in Rogers or Harries technique. This is huge.

They may think this shotgun is funny, but I assure you, in the right hands it's no joke.
I don't know who makes it, but I wouldn't mind owning one with double triggers, a ghostring peep and an X300.

The postings reminded me of that epic Discoweb home defense shotgun thread when John posted pics of the Paradox and shook up everyone's worlds.
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  #69  
Old June 16th, 2009, 11:08 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dchapman
I went in today to order an AR. I was going to get the Colt. Long story short, I saw the Vinci (not for sale), but mine will be here around October, estimated.

October?

Get the 6920 as well. That way you'll have something to shoot while you're waiting for the Vinci to land. The 6920 and Vinci are two completely different weapons with completely different purposes, so there's no reason not to score both.
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  #70  
Old June 16th, 2009, 07:18 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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The guy at the gun shop claimed it was taking 10-months to get a Vinci. I don't know if he's full of shit or not but did not really care. I ended up buying a gun that someone else has ordered and changed their mind.
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  #71  
Old June 16th, 2009, 08:05 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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10 months is fine. I've waited much longer than that for guns.

But score that 6920 to keep you company while you wait for Leonardo to land. That 6920 is a rocket.
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  #72  
Old July 7th, 2009, 02:27 PM
willroeder willroeder is offline
Will Roeder
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 104
My next gun purchase is going to be a shot gun for home defense. Originally I was comparing the Remington 870 and the Mossberg 500. I've pretty much ruled out the Remington 870, as it just doesnt seem as comfortable in my hands as the Mossberg. The only thing I like more about the Remington is the location of the safety.

So, I've pretty much narrowed it down to the 500 or 590. My problem is that there seems to be 10 different models of the 500 on Buds Gun Shop with varying prices but similar specifications. Also, several people have told me to go for the 590 over the 500 because the quality is better. Unfortunately none of my local gun stores have a 590 on their shelves for me to compare them myself. Can anyone tell me exactly what is different about the 590?
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  #73  
Old July 7th, 2009, 06:18 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Get the 590.
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  #74  
Old July 7th, 2009, 07:18 PM
tweak tweak is offline
Darich Runyan
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Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Southeast Virginia
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Get the 590.

I second that.
____________________
'04 Disco

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  #75  
Old July 7th, 2009, 08:36 PM
willroeder willroeder is offline
Will Roeder
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Get the 590.
So I've heard. Can you tell me why? Either gun is under my original budget, I just want to know WHY I should get the 590.
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