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  #251  
Old May 20th, 2008, 05:37 AM
ronward ronward is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, GA
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As long as we're talking P7s, I went by one of the largest gun stores in my area last week and lo and behold there in the case sat a brand new P7M8. I asked the owner to bring it out and he handed it to me, feel the love. I'm not an expert, so I'm not sure which model P7M8 this was but it was stamped "038 of 500" on the slide. I asked about this and the store owner said it was a limited edition run and the only one he's got. Price tag indicated box, cleaning tools and manual, and two magazines (ed. rhw) for $1399.

I looked at a used one two months ago for $1000 and didn't buy it either.

Any ideas about the "special edition"? Could this be one of the "Jubilee" models?
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  #252  
Old May 20th, 2008, 07:23 AM
Nadir_E
 
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I agree with your supposition on the ammunition, John - sounds like it was a bad round from your description, possibly even a bad batch. At least it happened at the range and not on the street. Lends a lot of credence to your keeping a back-up handy, too.
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  #253  
Old May 20th, 2008, 08:50 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Ron, that sounds like a Jubilee M8. And they're magazines, not clips.

I was at the Norwalk Turner's over the weekend and they had a P7M8 there. It was one of the last ones. I didn't see the date code on it, but the markings on the pistol were from the last batch of M8s. Asking price was $2,000. I don't know if the pistol was new or used, or if it was a consignment gun. But $2,000.
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  #254  
Old May 20th, 2008, 09:22 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Actually, I just read your post again and you said "stamped", which made me think. Did this M8 you saw have walnut stocks? Or the flat plastic stocks?

If the stocks were the former, then it was probably a Jubilee:




If the stocks were the latter, then that pistol might have been one of the "last" AH date code guns, like this:




You can see the slide is engraved with "386 of 500" below the ejection port:




There are some guys selling P7M8s who claim that the AG date code was the last of the last. (AG is 2006.) But clearly there were M8s manufactured in 2007. I don't know if the AH date code is the last of the last, but clearly AG is not.
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  #255  
Old May 20th, 2008, 12:55 PM
ronward ronward is offline
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Sorry, magazines.

Yes, John, the P7 I saw was not the walnut handled Jubilee then. It's clearly one of the 500 AH you suggest above.

To be clear, is the $1399 price good or bad in your opinion given what little you know about the one I saw (assuming it is one of the last 500)?

Thanks
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  #256  
Old May 20th, 2008, 01:16 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I'm not interested in such things, so I don't know what the Jubilee and "Last 500" models go for in terms of collector value. But I would think they go for more than a standard M8. Generally speaking, I think $1400 is a very good price on a new P7M8. For comparison's sake, check out gunsamerica.com and do a search for "P7M8". I think you will be stunned at the asking prices for new-in-box M8s.

Also, I would rather have one of the "Last of 500" pistols than a Jubilee, and I would rather have a stocker P7M8 than a "Last of 500" model. The "Last of 500" model is sort of like the limited-edition, last of 500 willow green Defender 90 station wagons. I prefer a stocker alpine white or arles blue or conniston green D90SW over the LE model.
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  #257  
Old May 21st, 2008, 07:09 AM
lucasd2002 lucasd2002 is offline
David Lucas
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
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John, are those walnut stocks on the Jubilee the ones you were complaining about because they are too large?

I like the look (if I could lose the "HK" in the middle of the stock and slim them a little bit, I think it would be perfect). I don't particularly care if it is a jubilee or not but I like the stocks.

Are you pursuing the 10-round magazines for your P7m8? Were they for the older P7?
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  #258  
Old May 21st, 2008, 08:45 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Yeah, those stocks are too fat. The quality on them is superb, but they are too fat.

If you want to lose the "HK" on the Jubilee stocks, Nill-Grips also makes a copycat version of the plastic stocks with stippling on the sides:

http://www.nill-griffe.de/cms_usa/in...d_navigation=4

I have a set of these stippled walnut stocks for one of my M8s. They're very nice stocks but they're too fat.

Take another look at the pic of the 10-shot mags. They say "P7" on them and they don't have a hook in the front of the magazine for the M8's magazine catch. They're P7 magazines, not P7M8 magazines.
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  #259  
Old May 22nd, 2008, 09:31 AM
lucasd2002 lucasd2002 is offline
David Lucas
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Charlotte, NC
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LOL, I stumbled upon the missing link from your P7 collection.

From the Hernándo Cortés series:

731463_hk9mmgold_owa03l.jpg
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  #260  
Old May 22nd, 2008, 09:46 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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That would be perfect with this:


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  #261  
Old May 22nd, 2008, 10:14 AM
ronward ronward is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Columbus, GA
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Newest model in the Castor Troy Signature Collection.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Castor Troy 1911s.jpg (19.6 KB, 21 views)
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1990 Range Rover Classic
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  #262  
Old May 22nd, 2008, 11:30 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
That would be perfect with this:




I'm digging the spare pairs on the infantryman holding the SD.
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  #263  
Old June 10th, 2008, 04:29 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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  #264  
Old June 10th, 2008, 04:58 PM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
Damn - that's a hell of a collection of military firearms and support weapons! I wonder if it was all functional (some serious DOJ paperwork if so).
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  #265  
Old June 14th, 2008, 06:27 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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You think this guy likes the P7?:


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  #266  
Old June 14th, 2008, 06:35 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
These first- and second-generation P7s are commonly referred to as "PSP" models. That is not correct. The Polizei Selbstlade Pistole predates the P7 and is a different pistol. PSP magazines do not interchange with P7 magazines. This is one of the glaring errors on HKPRO, which doesn't even have a separate section for the "P7" in the section on the P7 family of pistols, even though obscure models like the P7M7 and P7PT8 have their own sections.

And to make things even more confusing, Heckler & Koch brought back a run of P7 pistols and called them "P7 PSP" to differentiate them from the P7M8 then in production. These P7 PSP models had matte finishes and plastic triggers.


Here's a "P7 PSP":




The slide is marked "PSP", but this definitely not a true PSP and is a late-model gun from HK. You can see by the "KH" date code that this pistol was made in 1997 and features the late-model engraving for the serial number, importation mark, and proof marks.

Beautiful pistol.
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  #267  
Old June 14th, 2008, 08:02 PM
dchapman dchapman is offline
Daniel Chapman
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,126
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
Damn - that's a hell of a collection of military firearms and support weapons! I wonder if it was all functional (some serious DOJ paperwork if so).

When I was building up my 4.6 for my Disco, I needed to get a pair of D2, secondary air heads welded up. I needed the secondary air ports closed off.

I asked around and got a name of a guy. I called him up and we agreed to meet at his home.

I arrived at the address to see a smallish home (900sqft, maybe) and a large, detached, 2-car garage. The garage was two levels; one level was ground level from the front; the bottom level was similar to a walk-out basement.

After getting the heads welded, I think he charged me $30.00. I paid with a $100.00 bill. The welder asked me to come downstairs for change, and it was here that I saw his gun collection. The downstairs of this garage was basically a vault. It was a room, maybe 1000sqft, divided in half; one half was a business office; the other half was a gun vault.

Separating the office and the "vault" was a steel gate - something like you would see on the jail-cell door on Andy Griffith. In this room I saw swords, rifles, pistols, and crazy mid-evil looking shit. Compared to the link I posted, I was say this guy had every bit as much shit, if not more, hanging on his walls. My buddy, Mike Noe, and I just kind of looked at each other in amazement. I wish I had pics.
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  #268  
Old June 16th, 2008, 12:28 AM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
Just for John, I've got a new plastic fantastic pistol myself. I'd seen them on the net here and there, and they looked like crap.

But when I saw the little Kel-Tec P32 at a recent gun show, I had to have one. It's a comfortable little mousegun, and it sights well. It cost a mere 245 dollars, so it's not a total loss if it's complete crap.

It looks quite a bit better in person, and despite some plastic flashing here and there, it appears to be built well enough. I've already gone over the whole thing and cleaned up the plastic work with a razor blade and some fine grit. I haven't fired it yet, but I'm comfortable servicing it now, and I'm going to have a go at the range shortly to see just how it performs.

Don't laugh just yet, I'm not going in with high expectations. I hope it does decently, though, I do like the little thing.

For the .45 crowd, I'll be placing an order soon. I'm picking up a USFA single action finally. I've always wanted one of theirs, and now that permit is burning a hole in my pocket. All I have to do now is decide which finish options to get.

I've also got my eye out again for a more reasonably sized pistol. The Kel-Tec is nice, but I also want to replace my garish 1911 with something I actually like. I've always hated that thing.

I've just been cleaning out the safe, and it's time to try some new things as I get rid of things that never really worked for me.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #269  
Old June 18th, 2008, 11:15 AM
kennith kennith is offline
kennith
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC
Posts: 46
Nevermind, the Kel Tec broke after 21 rounds. The trigger transfer bar no longer engages, and it will no longer fire double action as a result.

It was a nice thought, though, hoping that someone could make something that compact and comfortable that was reasonably durable. The shame of it is, it shot realy well. It grouped well and indexed properly right out of the box. Aside from my revolvers, I did better than I ever have with an unfamiliar firearm.

Such a good feeling weapon, what a shame. Now I have to figure out what I want to do with it. I knew it might happen, though, so I'm not suprised by this. I just hoped it would work for me, as some seem to have had no trouble with them.

Cheers,

Kennith
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  #270  
Old June 18th, 2008, 03:57 PM
blue blue is offline
Bill Gill, aka chump hater
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Scottsdale, Arizona
Posts: 1,185
Quote:
Originally Posted by kennith
Nevermind, the Kel Tec broke after 21 rounds.

Now I have to figure out what I want to do with it.

trash can?
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  #271  
Old June 18th, 2008, 08:54 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,158
You may have noticed a proliferation of HK clones. These are hot right now. And they're "just as good" as the real HKs:


Obviously, the aluminum G3 magazine banana'd open. But look closely at the first pic again. You can see the bolt carrier rails are bulged outward. Same for the magazine well. These pics show the other side of the mag well:


This guy is fortunate he was shooting the aluminum G3 mags. The steel G3 mags are considerably thicker and stronger than the aluminum mags. I wonder what the receiver would have looked like had be been shooting the steel G3 mag. Better the magazine should peel open than his face.

This particular clone is from Century Arms:


Did Century Arms reverse the F (Fire) and S (Safe) by mistake? Or does this piece of shit's safety work in the opposite direction of the real HKs? I have no idea. I don't even want to know.

Look how shitty the trunnion-to-receiver area is:


That gap there should be welded solid but it's not

Also note the vertical trigger guard:


I think these are CETME trigger packs shoehorned onto the Century receiver.

If you can't afford a real HK91, that's fine. Not everyone has that kind of money floating around for toys. But if you can't afford the real HK91, don't mess around with a clone. You're asking for serious trouble. The HK roller-delayed system is a masterpiece of engineering, but it has to be executed perfectly to work properly. It's an unlocked .308. It requires proper tolerances and angles to achieve the proper amount of mechanical disadvantage. It's not something to mess around with. A .308 kaboom makes a pistol kaboom look like a little pop. Don't tempt fate with "just as good".
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  #272  
Old June 19th, 2008, 03:52 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,158
Check out the "date code" on this M10 magazine:

http://www.lenaburgs.net/images/HKs/P7M10HC%20002.jpg

IR?

"I" means 8 in the HK date code system, but what does "R" mean?

It gets worse. The magazine is marked "P7M10" and ".40S&W" so it's not a M13 magazine. The M10 and .40 wasn't even around in the 80s, so the "IR" can't be the date code.

Does anybody know what "IR" stands for?
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  #273  
Old June 20th, 2008, 03:12 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,158
I ran across some Thompson love.

First example:


It even has the bows for added stealth, and the "Chicago Philharmonic Orchestra" is a nice touch. For Amageddon, just open the partition:


That's sweet. No buttstock there, but still sweet because of the stealth factor.

This one is different in concept but very nice:


Croc too. Man that's sweet.

They're both nice, but I definitely prefer the latter. I love croc. Add the violin shape of the second case and the buttstock and it's a home run for me.

Antonio Stradivari and Giuseppe Guarneri would be proud.
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  #274  
Old June 20th, 2008, 05:47 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,158
Some more clonage:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=9&t=241315

Check out the welds on the rear sight base:


Who welded that thing? Stevie Wonder? It looks terrible.

Even ignoring the awful Picatinny rail on top, the trigger, trigger pack, magazine release, sling clip don't look like HK parts at all. Note the rear of the recoil spring's guide rod. It's a screw. A damn screw. More on that later.

Check out the bolt carrier:


That doesn't even close to an MP5 bolt carrier. This carrier even looks investment cast to me. The real MP5 bolt carrier even has tungsten granules in it to add weight and prevent bolt bounce. I'm sure this diecast carrier has the tungsten in there as well.

Here's a view of the front of the bolt carrier:


You can see the screw in the front of the recoil spring guide rod. A screw. This is unreal. MP5 recoil spring assemblies look like this:


The springs are captive on the rods and the rods are capped with plugs that are held in place with roll pins. Hardly expensive. But I guess the clones cut every corner they can.

Check out the extractor spring:


Why the extractor spring is bent in such a fashion is a mystery to me. Perhaps the designer thought "more is better" and wanted the extractor to be extra tight. But the problem with that is the rolled-delayed HKs are not controlled-feel weapons. The extractor has to snap over the chambered and headspaced round. On a round like the 9mm Luger that lacks a shoulder and headspaces on the case mouth, it's possible to push the case into the leade or collapse the case on a very hard hit. HK designed the extractor spring that way for a reason.

Check out the ejector:


It looks ground by hand so that it will fit.

The magazines:


Gee, I wonder which is the HK magazine and which is the clone magazine?
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  #275  
Old June 20th, 2008, 06:07 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,158
Some insight into the average clone owner's brain power:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=9&t=241710

Damn. This guy owns a short-barreled rifle and can't figure out how to remove the dust cap? I'm pissed.
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