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  #76  
Old August 20th, 2005, 09:21 AM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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LOL
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  #77  
Old August 20th, 2005, 09:23 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I just ordered my four books. CGP's online ordering isn't secure, but I said screw it and ordered anyway.
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  #78  
Old August 20th, 2005, 09:56 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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"Thank you for your business! Here is your receipt:

Order Number: 3447
Comments / More Information

Ordering Instructions - For overseas orders only, please specify air or surface shipping below. Applicable charges will be added to your order.

Qty Name SKU Price Sub Total
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Backbone of the Wehrmacht (The German K98k Rifle, 1934 - 1945 $ 69.95
1 Sniper Variations of the German K98k Rifle $ 47.50
1 MAUSER: Original Oberndorf Sporting Rifles $ 89.95
1 Sturmgewehr!-From Firepower to Striking Power $ 79.95
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub Total $ 287.35
Tax Total $ 0.00
Shipping: Ground $ 0.00
Grand Total $ 287.35

Thank you for your order! Please come again!
Store URL: http://www.collectorgrade.com/store.html"


BAM, they're on their way.
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  #79  
Old August 20th, 2005, 10:45 AM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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You mean "SSL Secure Server" isn't secure? Maybe it should be "SOL Secure Server"?

I usually like to order by phone even if not toll free. One less avenue of card fraud. Also, that way I can hear the delivery probs, excuses up front without waiting.

BTW-you forgot to post your card number on your order. Please correct.
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  #80  
Old August 20th, 2005, 09:53 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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My wife was wanting to wanting to look at pianos today in Orange County so decided to check out the gun show in Costa Mesa. It was much better than the last time I was there and actually had three buildings full.

Found these new (in plastic cover) at 10% off list so picked them up while there...

My previous ones were the Browning Hi-power and M16 books. Feel free to borrow the FG42 book if interested.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Book pics 011.jpg (64.1 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Book pics 013.jpg (74.2 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg Book pics 014.jpg (69.6 KB, 21 views)
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  #81  
Old August 21st, 2005, 08:07 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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very cool.
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  #82  
Old August 21st, 2005, 08:21 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Interesting.

Your posts of the Collectors Grade Publications prompted me to do a little more interneting for my current firearm obsession, the Bergmann-Bayard M1910:

So after reading the same histories over and over again it was time to cruise the auction sites.
There's a nice example on gunbroker right now:
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=35970890
but what really blew my mind was the following.
If someone has something rare or interesting I always like to check all of their listings to see if it's just some random place the gun ended up or if it's a hardcore collector.
this guy's offerings floored me.
check it out:
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/SellerA...sp?User=197839




If I were a man of means I'd be ending some auctions right now.
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  #83  
Old August 21st, 2005, 10:15 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Oh shit! Greg, you scored. I'll bet that Einheitsmaschinengewehr book is awesome. Yes, I'll be borrowing Death From Above. I'll wait until you've read it though, as you may never get it back.

It's nice to hear that the Costa Mesa Gun Show has swelled into three buildings. Perhaps in the future it will become what the Pomona show once was.

Jack, that guy has a nice collection. There was one glaring omission though. He didn't have the holiest of holies:

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  #84  
Old August 21st, 2005, 02:07 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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har-dee-har-har.

laugh all you want but I think it was the use of some of the most interesting looking 20th century firearms as the basis for "blasters" that made the Star Wars weapons so cool.
Among others based on: C96 Mauser, Luger, Mg34, Mg15, Mg42, Lewis Gun, Sterling SMG, Enfield, Margolin target pistol, Stg44, Rexim-Favor SMG, M16/AR, HK P9S, Ruger Mk1, Ar-7, Schermuly grenade launcher

Light Sabers don't do it for me.
these do:















not such a closet dork anymore I guess.
oh well...
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  #85  
Old August 21st, 2005, 02:51 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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LOL-That looks like it may be a good price on the broomhandle, Jack-of course I can't tell condition. There was a very nice condtion mid-teens broomhandle with shoulder stock yesterday at the gun show for $3900. Not one of those worn-out national Chinese surplus ones.

Also saw a case with a nice matched pair of Beesley 12 ga. sidelocks for only $65k. They had your name on them Jack.

I'll bring the FG42 book next time I see you John. Interesting reading. They quote a US Army evaluation of a captured type "E" FG42 stating "The recoil felt by the firer when firing this weapon is negligible. The line of thrust is a straight line with the point of rest on the shoulder. The tendency to climb usually found in weapons of this type is also absent which is due to this method of design". Was one of your relatives at Aberdeen Proving Grounds Ordnance research? Must have tested it after firing a BAR full auto...
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  #86  
Old August 21st, 2005, 04:13 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Another interesting sidenote in that, while developed by Rheinmetall, the original contract for production of 5000 FG42's was given to Kreighoff due to the fact that Goering had ownership in Kreighoff. They only produced around 2,000 however.
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  #87  
Old August 21st, 2005, 06:23 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I had no idea Krieghoff manufactured FG42's. Awesome. Now when I look at my K-80, I'll know it's a little bit more of a Death Machine than I had thought previously.
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  #88  
Old August 21st, 2005, 07:22 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I just did some Googling and found some more info on that same Cruffler site:




This is the part that I find especially interesting:

"The prototypes manufactured by Rheinmetall were manufactured largely of chrome steel. While an excellent material for gun manufacture, chrome steel was a strategic alloy in short supply. When the Luftwaffe was permitted to build 3,000 FG42 trials rifles, the material specification was amended to permit manufacture from manganese steel. Despite this amendment, Rheinmetall had its hands full producing machine guns and cannon, and could not spare the production facilities to build the new gun. As a result, production was undertaken by the Krieghoff firm. Krieghoff was not immune to wartime shortages, though. After somewhere between 1,000 and 2,000 rifles were made, the company was unable to obtain any more manganese steel, and production halted.

"Krieghoff took advantage of the production halt to register a major objection to the amount of forging, machining, and close tolerance work necessary to produce the Rheinmetall design. Given the exigencies of wartime production needs, the objection met with significant agreement in German ordnance circles. In addition to the production difficulties, field reports indicated that the FG42's light weight worked against it in the long range, full automatic fire support role. There were also allegations that the gun was simply too fragile for the rigors of sustained combat. Krieghoff was rewarded with a contract to redesign the FG42 so as to simplify production and remedy the basic flaws affecting performance and durability.

...

"While the design of the FG42 didn't lend itself to simple mass production techniques, the Krieghoff gun was a dramatic improvement in production engineering. While the original Rheinmetall design's receiver was a complex forging that called for extensive machining, the new Krieghoff receiver was made entirely from stampings. This had some negative impacts, though. To give some of the new parts sufficient strength, the original weight saving components were replaced with solid machinings. As a result, it became apparent that the FG42 was never going to be economical to produce. Additionally, attempts to improve long range full automatic accuracy when fired from the offhand position, overall system weight was increased and the rate of fire reduced from 900 to 600 rounds per minute.

"In effect, these modifications were tacit admissions that the combination of a short barrel, light weight, and a full power cartridge made for a rifle that was very difficult to control. Consequently, further modifications almost always included an increase in system weight. Indeed, the last model FG42 was to be more than two pounds heavier than the first Krieghoff model. Despite this, the rifle suffered from controllability problems up to the end of production. Despite advances in firearms technology and production techniques for fifty years after the FG42's entry into service, the dilemma of controllable, lightweight fully automatic rifle firing a full power service cartridge was never solved. The last generation of full power battle rifles - the FAL, the M14, and the G3 - all suffered from poor controllability in the fully automatic mode."
I'm glad that it was Krieghoff, and not Rheinmetall, that simplified production on the FG42. One of the things that I really like about the late-WW2 German weapons is that they were designed to be as simple as possible to produce in quantity and yet not be hunks of shit like the Grease Gun, Sten, or Liberator. Unlike those pieces of shit, these weapons are very high quality weapons. They're just made with very modern manufacturing techniques. I dig all of the complex stampings and welding techniques used to manufacture these weapons. This is one of the reasons I really like the old-school HK weapons like the G3 and P9:


Almost everything on the P9 is stamped. The slide and frame are stamped. Almost all of the internals except for the hammer and sear are stamped. The barrel is hammer forged and the firing pin block is welded to the inside of the slide. And, yes, the trigger guard is plastic. Ooh la la. And yet the pistol is of superb quality. There's absolutely no battle rattle as on the forged and machined 1911's. The pistol is supremely reliable and is the most accurate pistol I own. It makes the P7 seem inaccurate by comparison. And the trigger action for a DA/SA pistol is superb. The DA pull feels very much like a revolver's DA pull, with very little stacking at the end of the stroke. The glass-rod SA suffers from lots of overtravel, but my P9S shown above has an adjustable overtravel stop (which is also stamped). Best of all, the roller-delayed blowback method of operation is taken from the StG45(M), which was an attempt to simplify the StG44's production even more.

The stamped slide and robot-welded firing pin block and slide tip are probably the only reasons I like the P226. It's certainly not the lousy trigger action and high bore axis on that weapon that get my praise. This is probably the reason why I can't stand other SIG-Sauers like the P228--they have CNC-cut slides.

And this modern manufacturing stuff is probably why I dig the plastic trigger guards on modern German sporting guns. It's the same reason why I love the presence of roll pins, C-clips, and coilsprings in that Krieghoff Neptun hand-detachable sidelock. I love that stuff. I admire these modern production techniques as much as I do the very labor-intensive techniques required to produce a Best gun.

As an aside, note that this Cruffler guy doesn't fall into the trap of classifying the FG42, FAL, and G3 as "assault rifles" despite their modern appearance. This guy knows enough about weapons to know that these weapons are "battle rifles" and not "assault rifles".
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  #89  
Old August 21st, 2005, 07:27 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Well Krieghoff didn't always see the light.
They prevented production of one of the early variants of the Bergmann-Bayard M1910:

"Bergmann secured a contract with Spanish in 1905 for the Bergmann-Mars (aka Model No. 6 or No. 6a), and had contracted with Schilling of Shul to actually do the production run. But Heinrick Krieghoff purchased Schilling, and Krieghoff cancelled the contract with Bergmann."

oh and while we're talking about 9mm Largo.
here's John's favorite ancestor of the P7 squeeze cocker:
The Jo-Lo-Ar

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  #90  
Old August 21st, 2005, 07:35 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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I got your P9 right here,
or rather Lando Calrissian does:


as much as I love the Star Wars guns it's a little sad to think of an Stg44 getting chopped up to make a movie prop. Or gluing junk to a P9S.
But I just can't get enough of all the Wermacht influences in a galaxy far far away. From fallschrimjaeger smocks to schutzstaffel boots.
too cool.
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  #91  
Old August 21st, 2005, 07:40 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Nah, here are the early P7's.

Squeeze-cocking HK4 (which is nothing more than a modernized Mauser HSc):


Squeeze-cocking 1911:


After the concept was considered feasible, HK moved to the forward cocking device on another HK4:


Then production began on the PSP:


The P7's frame is a machined forging, but all of the squeeze-cocking parts are stamped. The slide appears to be a machined forging because of the quality of construction, but it's actually several different pieces robot welded together. And of course the method of operation is taken from the Volksturmgewehr. Awesome.
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  #92  
Old August 21st, 2005, 07:43 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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But is there an earlier system than the Jo-Lo-Ar?
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  #93  
Old August 21st, 2005, 07:44 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Are we talking about a system that actually works? Or just some footnote in small arms esoterica?
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  #94  
Old August 21st, 2005, 07:57 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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I've never actually read or heard how well the Jo-Lo-Ar works. I admit it's looks don't inspire confidence. But until I learn otherwise I'd be ready to give credit for at least the concept. I think it's incredible that it both chambers a round and cocks it with one handed operation.
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  #95  
Old August 21st, 2005, 08:14 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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oh shit!
check this out:
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/perartyrig.htm
I'm loving this.
To me the romantic and storyful allure of the early modern autos is at its most when I see them in contexts outside the usual. I love the thought that these weapons were not known to the soldiers of the day alone, but rather represented cutting edge technology for the masses in a day when few if any restrictions were put on what foreign militaries or civilians could buy. I have read before that in the waning days of the American west it was not impossible to spot a cowpoke with an unusually shaped holster carring a Luger, C96 or Bergmann.
The Persian Luger has the same sort of magic for me.
Farsi proof marks.
awsome.
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  #96  
Old August 21st, 2005, 08:16 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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EEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!
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  #97  
Old August 21st, 2005, 08:21 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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And Farsi proof marks? Is there a Baghdad Proof House or something?
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  #98  
Old August 21st, 2005, 08:23 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
This is probably the reason why I can't stand other SIG-Sauers like the P228--they have CNC-cut slides.

You're thinking of the P229. All German-made SIG-Sauers (220/225/228) use stamped slides. The 228 is not longer available in the US as the US-made 229 is available in 9mm, .357 sig, and .40 sw. The Exeter NH plant uses (or at least they did) German-made aluminum frames and uses a US-made machined slide and makes their own barrels and springs. I've heard these US-made springs are prone to failure.

I also don't like the machined slide. The stamping has a unique look and quality that I like.
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  #99  
Old August 21st, 2005, 08:26 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Ooops, my bad. That's right. I meant 229.
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  #100  
Old August 21st, 2005, 08:27 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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I shot my luger at the range today and it was just the same old plane jane 1913 DWM.

It did perform well as always. Everything else my friend and I brought was a modern auto. Glock G35, Sig P226 and Kimber Custom II. Accuracy with aimed shots matched even the Kimber. Only the double tap is its downfall. No such thing with a Luger. All over the place.
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