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  #101  
Old May 5th, 2005, 04:16 AM
ronward ronward is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2003
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Ha, awesome. I can manage the ejection trick with my Silver Pigeon .20, but the action on my Browning Citori .12 is just too stiff for any fancy tricks....
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  #102  
Old May 5th, 2005, 09:19 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Time for a Perazzi?
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  #103  
Old May 5th, 2005, 07:05 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Or maybe a Beretta 682?:

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  #104  
Old May 5th, 2005, 08:09 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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So bad ass.

If you can do that... does it matter if you hit anything?
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  #105  
Old May 5th, 2005, 08:26 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Why do I get the feeling there's no way in Hell you're going to end up with a repeater? Much double fever I sense in you.
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  #106  
Old May 5th, 2005, 09:21 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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I'll make up my mind (I hope) on Sat. The guys at Pacific Sporting Arms will fit the 686 to me and see how the "cast off" wood looks on me (being a left hand shooter). If it'll work... I'm sold. If not then, well... M2 Super 90... Perazzi... M2 Super 90... Perazzi...

If the 686 just won't fit (they are willing to do some tweeking for me), then I may go for the less expensive repeater until I can justify a Perazzi.

I'll know on Sat.
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  #107  
Old May 5th, 2005, 10:05 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Shiiit, if you decide on saturday that it's 682/K-80/Perazzi for you, then I say don't even waste your money on a Benelli. Just borrow mine. That way, you won't be $1,000 in the hole. Just shoot my Super 90 instead and you'll be $1,000 closer to the gun you really want.

If you're comtemplating the purchase of a nice double, that's a lot of money so you should know what you're buying. Remember when you and I were talking on the phone about shotgun longevity and how some doubles have a tighter lock-up and greater longevity than others? You can you actually see in this pic how the Beretta 686 and 682 lock up:



Note the hole just above the proud ejector flange, the hole on the side of the upper chamber. There's another hole like this on the left side of the upper chamber. When you hinge the 686/682 shut, two tubular projections protrude from the receiver's breech face and engage these two holes on the barrels' breech face and lock the action closed.

This system is different from the locking system employed on the K-80. Here's a pic of the K-80 barrels open:



Notice the lack of holes in the K-80 breech face. The locking lugs on the K-80 flank the upper barrel, just as on the 686/682 system, but there are no holes on the K-80. Rather, the topmost portion of the receiver slides forward and backward on the K-80. Here's a side view of the K-80's receiver with its top latch in the rearward position:



And here's a view of the top latch forward/engaged:


Note how the locking surfaces on the K-80 are angled, so that the top latch can seat farther and farther forward as the parts suffer wear and tear with repeated use. This system is very efficient and has spawned some copycats like the Tikka 512:



Perazzi uses another system entirely. Here's a view of the Perazzi locking lugs:



You can see that the Perazzi's locking lugs flank the lower barrel, not the upper barrel. Perazzi locking lugs are also sloped slightly to so that the bites can seat farther and farther forward to compensate for wear and tear of the components after prolonged use.

Note how all three of these locking systems employ the lugs/bites/lumps on the breech face and not under the barrels. Lots of other shotguns employ a lump below the lower barrel. This system is typified by the various Browning designs, like so:



Note how the lumps under the barrels add substantial height to the overall height of the barrels. Also note how the hinge axis on the Browning is below the bottom barrel and doesn't bissect the lower barrel as on the more modern designs.

Many modern designs like the Blaser F3 also use the underlump design, albeit with a relocated hinge axis:



The Beretta, Krieghoff, and Perazzi systems don't use lumps under the barrels at all. On the Beretta and K-80, you have just the upper and lower barrels and that's it. The bottoms of the lower barrels on the Berettas and K-80 are rounded in shape, so the receivers can be shaped in an elegant U shape rather than squared. The receiver can also be built shorter in height, as it need encapsulate only the two barrels rather than two barrels and underlumps. That is one reason why the Brownings and their copycats are so much taller than the Berettas and the K-80.

Here's that 686 Sporting again:



Notice how much shorter in height that 686 Sporting is compared to this Browning:


When I hold a Beretta and then hold a Browning, the Browning feels so tall in the hands. I'm sure I could get used to it, but I prefer the looks and feel of the shorter (top to bottom) guns.

The Perazzi has a squared lower barrel shape, so it's a little different from the Beretta and K-80 barrels in shape, and the Perazzi's receiver must be made slightly more squared in shape at the bottom. But the Perazzi receiver is very low in height.

All of the various locking systems are more than good enough, but my strong preference is for the non-lumped Beretta, Krieghoff, and Perazzi designs. The Beretta system is very nice but won't have the longevity of the Krieghoff and Perazzi designs. There are numerous K-80's and Perazzi's that have fired over a million documented rounds and still maintain a vault-tight lock-up. That is just incredible longenvity from a double, or any gun for that matter.

Also note how the Krieghoff and Perazzi designs also push down as well as lock the breech shut. The flats flanking the upper barrel on both the K-80 and Perazzi designs are actually pushed down against the flats of the receiver. The underlump designs don't do this and neither does the Beretta design. I can't help but think that the Krieghoff and Perazzi designs deliver a stronger lock-up as well greater longevity.

My favorite design out of all of these is obviously the K-80, but the K-80 is far from being suitable for everyone. It's very inelegant in shape, to say the least. I love the K-80, but most hate it and I can totally understand why.

When you're at Pacific Sporting Arms on Saturday, take a look at the various locking systems and see if anything jumps out at you. Locking engineering isn't more important than gun fit or feel or appearance or whatever, but it does matter and I don't think you should overlook it when you're choosing your double.
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  #108  
Old May 6th, 2005, 08:13 AM
reelpain
 
Posts: n/a
Reel men use 3' mags...for duck and goose that's it!

Without all the "engineering" mumbo jumbo, lets face it. The proof is in the kill.
Since the banning of lead shot and the implementation of steel, Ive beefed up on heavier loads. My Remington handles them just fine.

Last edited by reelpain : May 6th, 2005 at 08:15 AM. Reason: mistakes
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  #109  
Old May 6th, 2005, 10:38 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,144
Um, yeah, whatever, Big Dawg.


I just got an interesting email from UPS:


"Important Delivery Information

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adult Signature Required - Adult must be at least 21 years of age
Scheduled Delivery: 11-May-2005

Shipment Detail

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ship To:
JOHN LEE/ 310-6181875
SO. CAL SHARPSHOOTER, INC.
1827 W. 208TH STREET
@ WESTERN
TORRANCE
CA
90501
US
Number of Packages: 1
UPS Service: GROUND
Weight: 28.0 LBS

Tracking Number: 1ZA6024RA845304056
Reference Number 1: 3102015/20202/ROBINSON"


The "28.0 LBS" has me scratching my head a little, but I'm not asking questions. Just anticipating.
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  #110  
Old May 6th, 2005, 10:47 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee

The "28.0 LBS" has me scratching my head a little, but I'm not asking questions. Just anticipating.

Why??? Does it seem low?
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  #111  
Old May 6th, 2005, 11:07 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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No, it seems high. A K-80 weighs about 8.5 lbs. I'm wondering if my gun is coming in one of those Americase cases that a lot of K-80's come with. Like this:



I'll probably not use that case anyway, so it doesn't really matter to me if the gun comes with the case or not.
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  #112  
Old May 6th, 2005, 11:14 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
No, it seems high.

He was also sending all the little goodies that were pictured, right? That stuff adds up. And even if there is not a fancy case... just packing the K80 to be safe would also add weight. The seller seemed to be very careful with this weapon, I would guess he went overboard on the packing.
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  #113  
Old May 6th, 2005, 11:23 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
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The gun came with the extra chokes, stock wrench, snap caps, that hideous K-80 cap, and some other stuff, but 20 lbs. of extra stuff is a lot. I'm thinking that Americase is also in the package.
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  #114  
Old May 6th, 2005, 04:45 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Posts: 16,144
I was hunting through the Holland & Holland site and found some nice gun porn:
















My favorite is the first one. I just love hotties shooting nice guns.
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  #115  
Old May 6th, 2005, 06:32 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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Should I be bold and just go for it for my first shotgun??



John what do you think about a Rizzini?
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  #116  
Old May 6th, 2005, 06:36 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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I don't think I understand the "Rizzini" thing... It looks like multiple manufacturers use the Rizzini name???
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  #117  
Old May 6th, 2005, 06:56 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I don't know, man. That MX-12 is big bucks. Even used, it's going for $6,200. That's a lot of money to spend on a shotgun, especially when you don't even know if you'll like shotgunning. I really enjoying shotgunning but it's not for everyone, and it may not be for you (although I doubt this).

And that particular MX-12 is probably a RH model, so you'll have to spend more money on it to get it to fit you and you may never achieve a reasonable fit even after spending time and money on the buttstock. You'll be no better off with that than with the 686 Sporting and you'll be another $4,400 in the hole. And that MX-12 has fixed chokes. There's nothing wrong with fixed chokes but on your one and only shotgun it's nice to have interchangeable chokes.

My K-80 was $4,500. That's still an arm and a leg, but it's a hell of a lot better than $6,200 for that MX-12.

PSA's site lists the Beretta 682 for $3,300. That's not a bad option for you if you find you like the looks of the 682's modern styling. It's almost double the cost of the 686 Sporting, but I think the 682 comes in LH models. Damn, you lefties. Making life complicated and all.

I say just go to PSA tomorrow and see if anything jumps out at you. If nothing jumps out at you, so much the better. This shit is starting to get expensive.
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  #118  
Old May 6th, 2005, 08:01 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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I know... I just playing. There are so many pretty guns out there when you start looking around.
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  #119  
Old May 6th, 2005, 08:53 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,144
When you're at PSA tomorrow, take a close look at the 682 Sporting if the fitting thing won't work on the 686 Sporting, or there is substantial doubt that you will achieve an acceptable result with the 686 Sporting.

The 682 Sporting looks like this:




I believe that's the current version of 682 Sporting. That particular gun looks to have 30" barrels. Note how trim that gun looks compared to underlumped guns like the Brownings or the Krieghoff Ulm.

The 682 also comes with some extras:




Note how long the choke tubes are and how they extend past the muzzles when screwed into the barreles. Jack will freak at these, but I kinda dig them on the futuristic-looking 682. The 682 is very futuristic looking with its weirdo engraving on the receiver, its long choke tubes, and its laser-cut checkering. I love it.




When you check out a 682, pay special attention to the wood and the checkering:




I believe the checkering is burned with a laser or something like that. It's definitely not done by some small Italian woman with artistic hands. I dig this checkering a lot and think it's very cool. Others will hate it. See if you like it or not.

Here's a pic of the buttstock shape:




If that picture is representative of the latest 682's, then one of my objections to the 682 is now gone. The penultimate generation of 682's had very weird-looking pistol grips that were very vertical in shape and very unsightly. This new stock looks very graceful.

I'm also digging the schnabel forend on the 682. Previously, only 686's had the schnabel and they were looking better than the 682. Now the 682 is looking sweet.

But with the elimination of the ugly buttstock, Beretta just had to add some weird engraving on the receiver:




I personally don't like that engraving. I think the gold stuff on the sides and on the trigger makes it even worse. But then again, lots of people hate the CNC'd "K80" on my gun, so to each his own. Take a look. You may dig it. If you hate it, then oh well and move on.

Also, one thing to keep in mind about the 682 is that it's very much more of a "gun for a lifetime" thing than the 686 is. The 686 is a very nice gun, but it's more of a "starter double". The 682, on the other hand, will take you as far as you want to take it. You might screw with the stock dimensions or have barrel work or trigger work or sight work or whatever else done to the gun to tweak it to your liking, but you will not "outgrow" the 682. That is not to say that you will never sell it or purchase another shotgun. I'm just saying that you will probably never say "I need more gun than this 682 provides me." You'd have to be a total bad ass to say that with a straight face.

For example, lots of very fine shots shoot the 682 in the Olympics and World Championships and such. Check out Beretta's list at:

http://www.beretta.com/index.aspx?m=53&did=68

(The DT10 is Beretta's all-out competition model, designed to compete against the K-80 and the various Perazzi's. The "ASE" is Beretta's previous top-of-the-line competition shotgun.) You can see in those tables that the 682 is a very popular shotgun in world-class competition. It has always been this way. You will see lots and lots of 682's on the firing line at the Olympics and Worlds.

If the 686 tweaking appears iffy, then take a look at a 682 and ask if it's available in LH versions. If so, the 682 might be a viable option for you. PSA's site lists the 682 at $3,300. I don't know if LH versions would raise the price or not. That's a lot of money to be sure, but be sure to take into account the cost of tweaking the 686.

Have fun at PSA tomorrow.
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  #120  
Old May 7th, 2005, 03:40 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
I felt like a kid in a candy store. PSA is a very cool place indeed.

When all was said and done... the 686 has a bit of a RH bias (cast off I believe) but only a bit. PSA did not think it was enough to be a problem. If I find it a bit bothersome, they can steam and twist it a little. They really didn't think it was necessary.

So... well... I looked around handled a bunch of guns (including a few in the $12-15k range) and had a great time. When all was said and done my choices were the 686 as a sub $2 gun, or... there were a couple that I liked in the $2.5-3k range.

So... I'll pick up my 686 in 10 days!!!!!!
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  #121  
Old May 7th, 2005, 05:19 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,144
Oh man, that is so sweet. Congratulations. I'm really happy for you.

That 686 Sporting is such a sweet gun. It's so nice that I still can't believe it's a 686. Beretta really went Uptown on this one. I can't wait to see the wood on your gun too.

I am little pissed off though. You're going to get possession of your 686 before I get my K-80. Damn!

We gotta hit the range. We could hit a formal skeet or trap range, but that'll be expensive and intimidating for you to learn on. It'll also be too hard I think.

I was thinking of A Place To Shoot:

http://www.aplacetoshoot.net/

That range is near Area 51 and it's a good place for you to learn on clays. We can throw our own clays and you can learn on going-away targets. The problem is the range appears to be closed because of the rains. I just called there and the voice message said that they don't know when they'll reopen and to check the site for updates.

Another suitable venue might be Angeles Shooting Ranges:

http://www.angelesranges.com/

Angeles is a kick-ass rifle range, but the shotgunning there isn't very good. Actually, it sort of sucks. You can throw your own, but the trap there throws the birds the same way each time and you can't shoot the birds in different directions. You also can't throw simultaneous doubles. Angeles isn't so bad for learning, but even your first day shotgunning you'll get bored and won't learn as much as if we could vary the targets. And there are only two or three throwers there and sometimes you have to wait and wait and wait for those using the throwers to finish. But it's definitely better than nothing.

Angeles is also very close to your work, so perhaps we could go there on a Wednesday night, as Angeles is open until 9:00 p.m. on Wednesdays. I would think that we would have the throwers to ourselves if we went there at night, but I'm not sure. Perhaps the rifle range is closed at night and only the pistol range is open? I'm not sure.

A Place To Shoot would be the ideal place for you to start on, I think. But I don't know when it'll open again.

But whatever range we go to, we gotta hit the range. Soon you'll be stylin as you're smoking the clays and catching those ejected hulls like a pro.

This is awesome. I'm really excited for you.
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  #122  
Old May 7th, 2005, 05:31 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
Yeah, I'm excited. It's quite a bit of money, sometimes I get a bit nervous after spending that kind of money, at least until my purchase has proven it's worth. But I walked out of PSA so excited! The only bummer is the f**king 10 day wait period!

They were very cool at PSA. After I had picked which of the two 686 Sportings they had in stock (he said he sells a lot of them), someone else started looking at the 686. When they pointed at the one I had picked out and went to pick it up, the salesman stopped them right away with: "That one is sold!" And handed them the other one. Boom. "SOLD" My gun... hands off. Yeah... I had a big ol' smile!

I don't mind going to a regular range. Maybe I'll call around and see if they have a time recommendation for a beginner. I have no problem shooting away and not hitting anything (at first). I will just feel bad if I hold up other people and get in the way of their fun. Although everyone I have spoken with has so thrilled that someone new is getting involved that I don't think it will be a problem.

Jack... Keith... I hope you guys were serious about taking a newbie bird hunting!!!! Don't worry... I won't hit you up for it until I can hit the broad side of a barn!
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  #123  
Old May 7th, 2005, 05:45 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
KI6BCA
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
This site has a list of ranges. I don't know how complete a list... but a list.

http://www.socalcamping.com/shooting/shoot_info.html
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  #124  
Old May 7th, 2005, 05:57 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,144
Quote:
Originally Posted by traveltoad
I have no problem shooting away and not hitting anything (at first). I will just feel bad if I hold up other people and get in the way of their fun. Although everyone I have spoken with has so thrilled that someone new is getting involved that I don't think it will be a problem.

I really doubt it will be. Some trapshooters get upset if you break up the rtythm/cadence of the firing for the squad, but most welcome new shooters. Skeet shooters also don't seem to care and welcome newbies as well.

The only thing people really get upset about is gun safety, and rightfully so. If you just leave your double broken whenever you're not shooting and load only right before you shoot, you've basically got the etiquette down. The etiquette thing is also a lot easier with the double than it would be with a repeater.

The Burro Canyon Sporting Clays course is very reasonably priced at $15 for 50x birds. That's very good for sporting clays. There are only eight stations, but that might be a good thing when you're learning. This Burro Canyon thing might be our best bet for your first day out. And if they have an informal shotgun range where we can throw our own, so much the better.


Jack, please send me the In the Blood DVD, so that I can send it to Aaron. We gotta get hunting into Aaron's blood.
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  #125  
Old May 9th, 2005, 07:26 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,144
Aaron,

The shooting vest I have is a Barbour, but looks a lot like this one:


I don't know about the Bob Allen vests, but the contrast between the black leather and the green cotton twill isn't as pronounced in person on my vest as it in that pic.

Bob Allen sells LH models:

http://www.boytharness.com/catalog/p...products_id=72
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