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  #1  
Old July 11th, 2005, 05:34 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
.577 Nitro Express

One of Jack's customers is apprenticing to be a professional hunter in Africa. This apprentice's three-rifle battery consists of the following:

Light: .300 H&H magazine
Medium: .375 Flanged Magnum double
Heavy: .577 double

Jack was kind enough to broker a trade for me for a .577 round:




The .577 Nitro is on the left; .416 Rigby in the center, and a .223 is on the right for scale. The .577 round is very impressive looking in person and has an impressive heft when one picks it up. Unlike the modern loads with their monolithics and such, this load's bullet also features a very beautiful and elegant taper--just the ticket for driving through the honeycomb structure of an elephant's skull and zipping out the other side.

The .577 round is a Kynoch:




The round feels like a compressed load, as I can't feel any cordite loose inside the case when I shake the round.

Just as expected, the bullet features a steel jacket:




Oh if only I had a .577 double....

Thank you, Jack.
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  #2  
Old July 11th, 2005, 05:57 PM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Jacks client has a lot more money than most PH's. I suspect that he will end up going to more readily available rounds if he spends much time in the bush. There is probably about 3 boxes each of 375 Flanged and 577 on the whole continent. Beautiful 3 gun battery though.
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  #3  
Old July 11th, 2005, 06:17 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
I was thinking the same thing when Jack told me about this guy's battery. Just the .577 rounds for a season of finishers must add up to quite a lot of money. But from what I gather, I don't think money is a problem for this man.

If my memory serves, the Super 30 was a genuine Holland & Holland Mauser with Griffin & Howe side telescope mount, the .375 was a Holland & Holland Dominion Grade that was made for some Maharaja in 1909 in some other chambering and then rebarreled and reproofed to .375 Flanged Magnum in 1911, and the .577 was some German make I can't remember the name of (but I do remember never having heard of it when I did hear the name). I think the .375 had a Best Oak & Leather case to boot.

I would have thought the average apprentice would have a three-gun battery like this:

Light: Model 70 in .30-06 or 7mm Mauser
Medium: Model 70 in .375 H&H
Heavy: Model 70 .458 Win Mag

or something like:

Light: Model 70 in 7mm Mauser or .30-06
Light-Heavy: Model 70 in .416 Rem Mag

But if one has the cash to feed such weapons, why not?
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  #4  
Old July 11th, 2005, 08:05 PM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Your second choice of Apprentice battery's looks more like reality. Jacks buddy has got 80K worth of guns. This guy is having fun getting a PH license it seems, good for him. Must be RSA since it really is a test in other places. He could get a RSA liscense on a 2 week vacation. Fancy guns do not a PH make, their ability to spot the glint of sun off an impala horn through thick acacia brush is the difference. My ph didn't wear shoes til he was out of primary school. I remember him telling me they used to say, "Only fagots wear shoes and pants are for softies." Cool cartridge for your collection, now you need a 4 bore, looks like a candlestick.
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  #5  
Old July 11th, 2005, 09:20 PM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 864
John, after watching some of the Sullivan DVDs, I've changed my mind on the concept of stopping power. I used to believe that a bullet when entering the animal would transfer its momentum to the animal, thus stopping the animal. Now, I don't think that's the case.

There was one cape buffalo that charged Mark Sullivan after being wounded. Obviously, he was a little shaken when he took his first shot and shot a little low and hit the animal in the jaw. He shot the buffalo with a .600 Nitro. This buffalo didn't even break stride. It was the second shot to the brain that turned the lights out on the buffalo. This leads me to believe that the widely held concept of stopping power is invalid. The first shot was off-target and didn't do a damn thing to stop the animal.

Why then would anyone need a .600 Nitro? In the situation above, the same shot to the brain with a .416 Rigby or .470 Nitro would surely had the same effect on the brain. Even the .275 Rigby has had a wonderful track record of brain shots on elephant.

If I were so lucky to be in the position of selecting a heavy, I'd be looking at a round that would be easier to shoot than a .577. The .470 Nitro would be easier to shoot and I'm sure still be able to do the job as a heavy.
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  #6  
Old July 12th, 2005, 07:59 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
This guy is apprenticing in Tanzania with, of all people, Mark Sullivan. I think it's a four-month apprenticeship. Imagine spending four months in the Moyowasi. How cool is that? So long as he doesn't get mangled, it's got to be the experience of a lifetime.

I would love to have a 4-Bore and even a 2-Bore in my collection. I gotta keep an eye out.

I'm not sure the super heavies like the .577, .600, and .700 have a place today, as they were designed for the ivory tradesman and not for the sport hunter. Due to the restricted nature of modern hunting, there's really no need for dealing with an entire herd. For example, does anyone argue between extractor and ejector any longer? Not really. There are exceptions, like a game department professional who needs to cull entire herds and he might choose a super heavy for that if money weren't an issue. But generally I think the super heavies exist today as more of a novelty than real need, sort of like the punt guns used by professional waterfowlers of long ago.

Bell's tally of 1000 plus elephants using light rifles like the .256 and .275 is also a thing of the past I think. Even if we ignore the legal caliber requirements, hunting today needs larger calibers than in Bell's day. Bell shot unsophisticated elephants in open country. Oftentimes he could walk right up to them and and tag them. Or, alternatively, he could pick his shots with care and many of his shots were from relatively long range. From what I gather, today's poacher-harried elephant are hunted in heavy cover at conversational distances and even the .375 is widely considered to be inadequate under such conditions.

The heavy I want more than anything else is a .470 double. But I know that ain't happening any time soon.
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  #7  
Old July 12th, 2005, 11:05 AM
ryanspeed
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
The heavy I want more than anything else is a .470 double. But I know that ain't happening any time soon.
Right...
I know you will just have to get one of these:


http://www.hollandandholland.com/~ne...9898917161.htm
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  #8  
Old July 12th, 2005, 11:39 AM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
As a sportsman I find Mark Sullivans purposeful wounding of dangerous game to invoke a charge repulsive behavior, unsportsmanlike and unethical. His "allowing the game a decision on how to die" speech is self agrandizing bullshit. I would not accept a 21 day Tanzanian safari with him it were free.
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  #9  
Old July 12th, 2005, 12:03 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
My friend/client John is indeed spending four months with Mark Sullivan.
He is experienced, knowledgable and calm.
I have little doubt that he will fare well and with Mark's recommendation will be readily accepted by the PH community.

As for the specifics of his three gun battery, John Lee has the details more or less on. The .375 is incredible. So lively and quick but with adequate composition, heft and balance. It was indeed produced in 1909 and then rechambered for this particular maharajah. All Three guns are in motor cases. The .375 has the name of the maharajah in brass on the motor case. The .577 was actually made to order for the then owner of Rigby and so is stored in a Rigby made Motor case with Rigby labels identifying the double. If you saw the guns you would quickly realize that it is a lot more than an 80K investment. He also has a large stockpile of cartridges to feed the .577. John happens to also have a .405 he brought in for me to admire although he is not taking it along. His collection is pretty extensive but these are his choices for this serious trip.

Kevin,
I enjoy your experience and enthusiasm but I have to protest your quick judgement and assumptions about my friend John based on his battery. He has spent quite a bit of time in the fields of the Dark Continent and the guns he has chosen to bring reflect his knowledge and appreciation for the craftsmanship and design which has long proven itself. I'm hard pressed to see how those three guns won't serve their purpose extremely well, especially considering the company John will be keep in the Moyowasi. This is not an individual who I can characterize as extravagant. He drives a BEATER 91 classic and eats at Jack in the Box regulary. (Lord knows why???) But he appreciates and uses his guns with genuine skill and understanding. Furthermore, he is not interning for kicks, this is a career and lifestyle choice for the duration.
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  #10  
Old July 12th, 2005, 12:20 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
Ryan, I see that you've been dreaming a little on the H&H site. Nice.

I love the Rigby's .470 doubles. They're so nice. A lot of people dislike the distinctive Rigby's sideplates, but I rather like them.

That Rigby's .470 on the H&H site looks a little weird to me though. The buttstock horns are too wide where they're contiguous with the sideplates and they're too parallel looking. They look contrived like that. I much prefer the looks of this Rigby's .470:




Note how the flats on the flats on the horns are slightly thinner and they're not perfectly parallel with the edges of the sideplates. The result looks a little funky and doesn't have that contrived, "too perfect" look of the one on the H&H site. The stockmaker who did this one is a true artist.

Peep that slight bottleneck taper on the barrels. That is just so Rigby to have the bottleneck taper and is another funky touch on this very nice rifle. My favorite .416's also have that taper. I believe this double is a Paul Roberts era model. So nice. And unlike the modern pimp London Best guns, this rifle has the traditional London Oil Finish with the dark Alkanet stain and the pores not completely filled:




One of my beefs with a good percentage of the current London guns is that they have stocks with the pores completely filled. The result looks a little artificial and the gun looks overdone that way.

I'm not into the Best Oak & Leather cases, but if you are this rifle comes with one:




If my memory serves, McDonald's Gun Shop in Australia had this rifle listed for $30,000 USD about five years ago and the rifle was NIB. Holy shit, what a bargain. I wish I had the $$$$$.

Kevin, I think you're smoking crack. I don't worship Mark Sullivan or anything, but I've never seen him wound an animal to provoke a charge. He does provoke charges by walking up to wounded animals face-on and confronting them, but I've never seen him wound an animal on purpose. All of the various charges on his vids are finishers on animals that his clients shot. And Sullivan also provokes charges by following up on the wounded animals immediately instead of sitting down for a smoke break to let the wounded animal stiffen up. I think this practice is much more sporting than taking a smoke break, and the smoke break thing is well entrenched as acceptable practice by all PH's. You may disagree with Sullivan's hunting methods but at least get the story straight.
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  #11  
Old July 12th, 2005, 02:10 PM
ryanspeed
 
Posts: n/a
Or,
You could keep the Krieghoff theme going with this one...

link
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  #12  
Old July 12th, 2005, 02:30 PM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Jack,

I meant your friend no disrespect, its a beautiful battery of rifles that I would own and use if I could. They should serve him very well. His situation is pretty unique, you have to admit. I hope he enjoys his adventure . My opinion of Mr. Sullivan stands.
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  #13  
Old July 12th, 2005, 04:25 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
Damn, I see you've really been dreaming lately, Ryan. Very nice.

I dig that Big Five. Sure, it's not a London Best, but it doesn't try to be. It's just a solid shooter and it's super sweet. You can decock it too, sort of like a Blaser R93. How cool is that? Here's a schematic of the decocking action:




The only thing I would change on the Big Five is that it's an extractor and not an ejector. I want an ejector heavy rifle if only because topping it off is a little easier when employing the shoot-one-load-one technique. But from what I gather, the Big Five can't be made into an ejector.

But I still wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I could afford it. I like extractor doubles. Krieghoff sent me a catalog and price list for the Big Five with my Ti choke tubes, and some of the configurations are really nice. I think a standard Big Five goes for something like $10k or thereabouts, and little touches like folding front night sight, vertical gold line on the rear V, and case colors cost a few thousand more. Not bad at all.
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  #14  
Old July 12th, 2005, 06:14 PM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
John,

You can get into a Kreighoff for a lot less than 10k if you shop around a bit. When they come up used you can be sure they don't have a shot out bore!
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  #15  
Old July 12th, 2005, 09:22 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
Well, you've seen that Rigby's .470. That's the best. This .470 has to be one of the worst:




If only that cheese buff were gold with two bright red rubies for eyes, it would be perfect. And someone at Krieghoff needs to learn how to checker:




Even the crap checkering on my K-80 is better than that hunk of shit checkering. The other fake sidelock has some cheese elephant on it:




Check out the cheeseball curve to the elephant's trunk. I guess the engraver didn't want the end of the trunk to be outside of the fake sidelock, so he curved it around and into an unnatural position. Hideous. Not that having ANY animal engraved onto a gun is a desirable thing, but if you're going to do it at least make it look natural.

This thing is every bit as ugly as those wannbe Uptown K-80's. Why can't Krieghoff realize that its niche is high-tech guns and not wannabe Best guns?

Who buys this crap? The caption for this rifle reads:

"#1841 - Krieghoff Classic, .470 Cal. Custom From the Factory with Upgraded Wood, Sights and Engraving. This Rifle was Built to Order For an African PH who Shot over a Hundred Buffalo in Tanzania."

Asking price is a mere $12,500.

Ivory Beads is located in Los Angeles. The next time I'm there, I just gotta check out that rifle.
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  #16  
Old January 26th, 2006, 07:55 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
The .577 was actually made to order for the then owner of Rigby and so is stored in a Rigby made Motor case with Rigby labels identifying the double.

Jack, did your PH apprentice guy's .577 look anything like this one?:


http://www.germanguns.com/forsale/douglass2.html
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  #17  
Old January 27th, 2006, 11:27 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
oh shit!

exactly.
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  #18  
Old January 27th, 2006, 11:29 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
That's some seriously funky stuff. I love it.
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  #19  
Old January 27th, 2006, 02:11 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
felt like a 2x4.
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  #20  
Old June 23rd, 2006, 03:00 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,153
Galazan's has this beaut on its second-hand rack:


http://www.connecticutshotgun.com/guns/6620.htm


I think the buttstock wood is too fancy but otherwise that rifle is awesome.
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