Expedition Exchange Bulletin Boards  

Go Back   Expedition Exchange Bulletin Boards > General
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old July 26th, 2005, 03:45 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by traveltoad
That's funny. I would never have thought of Cabela's for an Essencia... or any Krieghoff for that matter.

Cabela's has been going Uptown over the years. Now it's a lot more than Realtree, Mossy Oak, and Advantage.

Cabela's is an authorized dealer for Krieghoff guns and rifles. I think Cabela's is also an authorized dealer for John Rigby & Co. (Paso Robles).

Cabela's even has some shit like this now:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co..._wr500_dun.jsp

That looks like a consignment gun, but imagine consigning that rifle at Cabela's of all places.

Damn, someone's going Uptown.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old July 26th, 2005, 05:03 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
but please stop this talk of 30" bbls on a 20 bore.
what a broom stick.
28" is the max.
We're not talking XZLs here, the taller and skinnier not always the better.
Besides, anything longer than 28" is awkward if you're not in a duck blind.

28" is the classic length and would definitely be nice. You can't go wrong with 28". But the Essencia, as beautiful as it is, is sort of a funky gun. It looks sorta funky, and I think the 30" barrels might look pretty cool on it. I've never seen one in person though, so that's just a guess. As beautiful as it is, the Essencia is still a Krieghoff and there must be at least a little ugly on it.

Also, I kinda dig the idea of 6.25 lb. 20-Bore with 3" chambers. With 3" loads, I basically have the power of a standard 12, but in a slightly lighter gun and a substantially thinner/sleeker gun. The Essencia's back action and three-bite lock-up should handle the 3" loads no problem, and the slightly heavier gun will make the 3" loads more tolerable. I dig it.

The main thing that stops me from getting a 30" gun is that I'm only 5' 9" tall and feel a little ridiculous lugging around and shooting a gun that long. I look like a little kid shooting his dad's shotgun. That's the main reason I got 28" barrels on my K-80 and a 24" barrel on my Super 90.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
The 16 bore achieves perfection not by "matching" any particular load or ballistics but by delivering a sufficient charge in a normal 2 3/4" shell with desirable handling and negligible recoil.

Yeah, the 16 is really unique all right. Instead of a firing the mundane 1 oz. load or the equally mundane 1 1/8 oz. load that the 12 fires, the 16 fires a 1 1/16 oz load. That 1/16 oz. really makes a difference.

Desirable handling and neglible recoil? Are you talking about gun weight? Because other than gun weight, how does a 16 handle any more desirably and recoil any more negligibly than a 12 or a 20?

If we look at WW Greener's The Gun and its Development, the "ideal" game gun should weigh 96 times the weight of the shot charge if the gun's weight is going to be commensurate with its power level. For example, a 12- or 20-Bore firing a 1 oz. load should ideally weigh 96 oz., or an even 6 lbs. A 20-Bore firing a 7/8 oz. load should ideally weigh 5.25 lb. A 16-bore firing a 1 1/16 oz. load should ideally weigh 6.38 lb. (which should make that Essencia 16 just about perfect according to Greener). And a 12-Bore firing a 1 1/8 oz. load should weigh 6.75 lb. All of these gun/load combinations produce the same perceived recoil.

These numbers are not universal but they are very widely accepted as a suitable guideline for game gun weight. If we take Greener's ideal 16 vs. his ideal 12, the 16 weighs only 0.37 lb. less. Big deal. And if we look at the 20-Bore Essencia, for example, it is 1 lb. overweight when firing standard 7/8 oz. loads so it will be a gentle shooter, 0.25 lb. overweight when firing 1 oz. short magnum loads so it should be about right, and 0.5 lb. underweight when occasionally firing 1 1/8 oz. 3" magnum loads so it should recoil on the heavy side with this load (a load more powerful than even the Sweet 16). Seen in that light, the 6.25 lb. weight seems to be a very good compromise weight on a 20-Bore with 3" chambers.

To me, the only real advantage of the 16 over the 12 is its ability to be made into a thinner/sleeker gun. The bore diameter difference between a 12 (0.729") and a 16 (0.662" I believe) is substantial. But if I want a thin/sleek gun, I'll take the 20, which is even thinner than the 16 and lighter. Especially so since I give up nothing in terms of power with the 20 vs. the 16 (at least with today's loads, as the 16's load development is currently at a standstill because there are so few 16's out and about).



Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
3" shells with a hot load and lots of shot in a 20 bore is like putting 35s on your disco. If you drive your disco well and choose carefully, 235/85s will do it all with very little in the way of drawbacks. Why butcher your truck or pound your shoulder just to get a little more when good driving or good shooting is all you need. If you must have more then step up to a defender or shoot a 12 bore.

I think the 3" chamber would be a nice thing to have on a 20. I don't hunt at all, but I'm guessing there would be walk-lots-shoot-little hunts where I would want the power of a standard 12 but don't want to carry the weight of a 12. So instead, I would take the 20 with 3" loads instead. This would give me a very lightweight gun (lighter than the 16) and a very powerful gun (more powerful than the current 16's). I doubt I'll be shooting hundreds of shots the way we do when we hit the sporting clays range. If we're going to Argentina and plan on tagging hundreds of birds in a single day, I'll shoot standard 20's or I'll take my 12. However, I think the light gun/heavy load combo definitely has a place.

And if the standard 20 is so effective, why is there the need for a 16 at all? Isn't the 20's 7/8 oz. @ 1250 f/s or 1 oz. @ 1250 f/s good enough for a skilled shooter? Why move up to 1 1/16 oz. @ 1250 f/s? If you do in fact need the extra power, wouldn't it be better to go to 1 1/8 @ 1250 in the 3" 20-Bore? I'm not following you here. Or is there is something magical about that 1 1/16 oz. charge of the 16?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
But the 16 doesn't exist in the rover world. The 16 would be a disco comfort and capacity rover with defender approach angles and steel bumpers. It would be perfect just the way it is. No mods, just right from the beginning.

You lost me here as well. What can the 16 do that the 20 can't?

The 16 can't be built into a lighter or thinner gun than a 20. If you want extra weight or bulk, the 20 can certainly be made in a heavier gun. Just look at the K-20 to see how large the 20 can go.

The 16 doesn't have any power advantage over a 20, as the current 16 is limited to 2.75" length. In fact, the 20 is even more powerful than the 16 if we look at today's available loads.

So what exactly is so special about the 16? Is it those purple hulls? Do they add some magic that the yellow or red hulls lack? What is so magical about 1 1/16 oz. of shot @ 1250 f/s? Is that some magic formula that 1 oz. or 1 1/8 oz. can't handle? Is it that lame ass, Gentile Bat Mitzvah "Sweet 16" label?

Or could the real allure of the 16 be that nobody else has one?



Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
You'd probably kill yourself by putting a 20 bore shell in there by mistake.

Um, I think you're confusing the 20 and 28.

The 20 in a 12 is a dangerous situation, as the 20 will plop down and headspace on the forcing cone, giving the appearance of an unloaded gun. This will encourage and permit a 12 cartridge to be inserted into the chamber right behind the 20. Pulling the trigger on the 12 will result in an unpleasant kaboom.

The 20 in a 16 will still headspace on the breech. It's not a recommended procedure by any means, but you can't insert a 16 behind the 20 the way you can on a 12. The 20 in a 16 chamber will stay in the chamber and headspace on the chamber rebate. Its moving around and irregular feel will give indication that the wrong cartridge was inserted into the chamber. You can certainly get a kaboom by inserting a 20 into a 16, but you have have to work at it.

The 28 in a 16 is like a 20 in a 12, and will plop down and headspace on the 16's forcing cone and give the appearance of an empty chamber. This will encourage and permit the chambering of a 16 into the chamber and right behind the 28, resulting in an unpleasant kaboom if the 16 is discharged.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old July 26th, 2005, 07:09 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Well I really like it, but 6.5 lbs for a 20 bore is way heavy.

LOL-I said it that I bet it "feels" light(subjectively). I'm used to lugging around 7 lb. + guns. Most of the 20 ga. I've shot were o/u or semi-autos that weighed the same or almost the same as their 12 ga. brothers.

I admit I don't have as much time with SxS's and their frames in different gauges.

I do know that I don't care for 12 ga guns under 6 lbs. I might enjoy CARRYING them, just not shooting them all day. I'm thinking of the Beretta Ultralights. Not enough heft to help enough with recoil and "swingability" for me for good gun control.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old July 28th, 2005, 07:35 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Wings & Clays is selling a K-80 SuperSport. Here's the description:


"Super Sport, 12 gauge Sporting Clays, Standard Engraving, Nickel Finish, Nickel Pins & Top Latch, Titanium Chokes, Hanger & Trigger Upgrade. 30 Taper Flat, Ct/Ct(5 Titaniums), #3 Sporting Woodset, Aluminum 2Bbl Case, List $10345"


That's a really nice set-up and basically mirrors what I would love to have on my own SuperSport. The only thing I would change is the Ti barrel hanger (which I think is too ugly, if you can believe that).

And here are the pics of this gun:




I think that aluminum Americase goes for more than $500. I wish Krieghoff would eliminate that case all together and just reduce the price of the K-80 by the cost of the case. Yuck. But the assembled gun looks fucking awesome:




That's just so K-80. Ugly but strikingly beautiful. The wood on this gun is nice too:






That's very appropriate wood for a K-80. Not fancy but enough figure to be interesting. I would prefer a darker-colored oil finish but Krieghoff USA doesn't do that.

Here's a close-up of the bitchin Ti trigger blade:




I love how Krieghoff polishes the outside surfaces of the trigger blade but leaves the CNC tooling marks on the trigger blade holes, just as it does on the Ti chokes. And here's a close-up shot of the Ti barrel hanger:




While I dig the Ti chokes and trigger, that barrel hanger is too much, even for me. Hideous, at least for now. It might grow on me though.

Even uglier than the Ti barrel hanger is the receiver:




I'll never grow to like that shit. That's the new "standard" engraving on the current K-80's. Absolutely hideous.

But dream a little with me here. Imagine the SuperSport barrels, Ti chokes and trigger, and the foregoing wood on this receiver:




And just imagine that same dream gun without this POS bottom metal:




But instead with the absolutely bad ass "SHOTGUNS OF ULM" machine engraved on the bottom:




So my dream target gun would basically look like this,:




but it would have the "K80" and "SHOTGUNS OF ULM" machine engravings, black top latch, black hinge pin and other pins, blued steel barrel hanger, and the No. 3 Sporting/International buttstock and Sporting forend, but with a dark oil finish.

I just might have to dump that SP89 and maybe a P9S or VP70Z to bankroll this project but it would be well worth it. I don't shoot those guns much anyway.

Also, Wings & Clays has some pics of the Essencia's leather case if you're interested in such things:






That's the standard leather case. It looks very Galco. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Galco was making those cases for Krieghoff. One can upgrade to a Best oak-and-leather case if he's willing to pay to play.

The Essencia thing ain't gonna happen for me though, so I'll stick with dreaming about the SuperSport for now.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old July 30th, 2005, 09:01 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I was just checking the Remington online catalog to see if Remington was loading Hevi-Shot in the upland loads. It does. The loads look very cool too:




Check out:


http://www.remington.com/ammo/shotsh...shot_field.htm


Remington offers Hevi-Shot in the 3" 20-Bore. It's a 1 1/8 oz. load @ 1300 f/s. Shot sizes offered are 4, 6, and 7.5. I can only imagine how devastating these loads would be.

Hevi-Shot is 10% denser than lead. That's a huge difference. I think a standard lead shot charge loses fully half of its velocity by only 30 yards because of the very inefficient ballistic shape and the poor sectional denisty of the round shot. That's a very sobering thought. At 30 yards, the shot charge is moving at only 600-700 f/s. Hevi-Shot has substantially higher sectional density. Thus, it will shed velocity more slowly and will also have better terminal performance after tagging the target.

That Remington video is also pretty cool. Check it out if you're curious.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old July 30th, 2005, 09:38 AM
hochung hochung is offline
Ho Chung
W6HC
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Rancho Palos Verdes, CA
Posts: 2,006
HEVI????
____________________
Ho Chung

Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old July 31st, 2005, 07:39 AM
nosivad_bor nosivad_bor is offline
Rob Davison
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,051
The pellets are a type of cemented tungsten carbide alloy. there is no magic to the formula. they use powder metal scrap that is not of the highest quality and press and sintering it into these small bb's. typically the tungsten nickle iron grades are used in "hot roll" applications such as carbide rolls used in steel mills to form bars and rounds. the grade is resistant to breakdown caused by oxidation at high temperature. so it's clearly engineered for a differnt application.

the density is easy to change by reducing some of the binder but then it becomes a harder pellet so that would increase bore wear.

looks like i have a fun project for monday.

john if you get one of these bullets and cut it up send me a BB i'd like to analyize it. i am curious to see how hard it is exactly.

rob
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old July 31st, 2005, 07:16 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Whereas Hevishot and other Tungsten Matrix high density loads certainly have their place in waterfowling where ranges are quite far and the birds are very tough, I don't necessarily see their necessity in the uplands. Again I'm perplexed by this obession with the 3" 20 bore. Under what circumstances and purusing what birds would this be handy? Keep in mind that unlike dangerous game and the majority of rifle-taken animals there is definitely such a thing as "too much gun" when it comes to birds. While we all want to firmly anchor our birds to prevent cripples it is important to effect a kill which remains good table fair. Tight chokes and overly heavy or dense loads can easily reduce most uplands, including pheasant, to hamburger. If one is determined to pursue pheasants (arguably the physically toughest and hardest to kill (not hit) upland bird) with a 20 bore, then a 2 3/4" shell with 1 oz of 5s or 6s and 2 3/4 dram of powder should be sufficient with good shot placement. On this, the hardest kill, for upland birds the pheasant should always be taken so that the shot string hits the front of the bird: head, neck and chest. Hits to the rear 2/3 of the bird are largely uneffective and straight going away shots should be avoided. Most upland birds can be brought down with nearly any solid hit, but not so with pheasant. That being said, a few 7 1/2s are sufficient if they hit the head/neck region of the bird. In this case any super heavy load if it contacts the body would, one: be less likely to bring the bird down than a light load to the head and two: stand a good chance of mangling the bird. When it comes to lesser birds (chukar, quail, grouse, dove, etc.) no 20 bore load larger than 2 3/4" 1 oz of 7 1/2s and 2 3/4 dram is needed or wanted. There is certainly such a thing as overpenetration and excessive wound channel when it comes to small birds. A large pellet ripping its way completely through a small bird is simply going to do too much damage.
The same can easily be said for choke and range. Too tight of chokes at too close of range even with small shot produces the same unwanted results. Hamburger birds that are a waste of game and often too tempting for retrieving dogs. Birds should hit the ground dead and whole. Many experienced hunters know to wait until a close flushing bird moves out of the immediate range which would be too devastating or they learn to "fringe" the bird with the edges of the shot pattern.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old August 1st, 2005, 02:32 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Rob, I'd love to send you some but I don't have any Hevi-Shot available. It looks like this though:




Note the oddball shapes and even some Siamese Twin action on some of the pellets. I don't understand how Hevi-Shot can pattern as well as it does. But it does; the pattern board does not lie. There are several different theories on why Hevi-Shot patterns as well as it does, but I'm not sure who's correct.

Hevi-Shot is distinctly different in design and concept from Kent's Tungsten Matrix. Kent's site says that Tungsten Matrix is composed of tungsten granules suspended in polymer. Tungsten Matrix is designed to mimic lead in every way, including malleability and weight. It's not heavier than lead and performs exactly as lead does through the bore, in the air, and after tagging its target. It's just non-toxic and approved for waterfowl use. It's also suitable for game ranches that require non-toxic shot.

Federal has another non-toxic called Mag-Shock or something like that that is supposedly much more than 10% heavier than lead and perfectly spherical in shape. I haven't seen any testing of this load.


Jack, if the 3" 20-Bore is overkill, then why is there the need for the 16-Bore at all? If 1 oz. @ 1250 is perfectly adequate on pheasant and 1 1/8 oz @ 1250 is overkill, how is 1 1/16 oz. @ 1250 desirable? You lost me here.

Hevi-Shot does pattern much more tightly than lead does. This is easy to fix: just use a more open choke. If you're shooting a gun with fixed chokes, just let the quarry fly out of the A range. Hevi-Shot doesn't bleed velocity as quickly as lead does and thus has a much longer effective range.

Another thing to keep in mind with Hevi-Shot is that there are fewer pellets in any given shot charge/size combination when compared to lead. You'll still be shooting 1 1/8 oz. of no. 6 pellets, for example, but there will be fewer of them in the air because each no. 6 pellet of Hevi-Shot weighs more than a lead no. 6 pellet and thus there will be fewer Hevi-Shot pellets in a given load. Thus, you're slightly less likely to mist the target with an A-range hit. The difference is slight, but it's there.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old August 1st, 2005, 03:25 PM
ryanspeed
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by nosivad_bor
if you get one of these bullets and cut it up send me a BB i'd like to analyize it. i am curious to see how hard it is exactly.

rob
I've got a case of it, I'll get one round to you...
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old August 1st, 2005, 07:27 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Ryan, come bird season it would be great if you could let us know how Hevi-Shot works for you. It might even be interesting if you mixed Hevi-Shot and equivalent lead loads in your shell bag, so that you didn't know which load you were shooting until after you tagged a bird and then opened your gun and saw which load produced which results. I'm very interested to know if Hevi-Shot has the ability to rag doll the birds without turning them into red mist.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old August 2nd, 2005, 07:53 AM
nosivad_bor nosivad_bor is offline
Rob Davison
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 1,051
looks like they press an assortment of round sizes. when they press these parts they are impregnated with wax approx 2% this helps them hold together. I assume when they sinter them they just dump an assortment into a graphite bucket so to speak and then sinter them in contact with each other. This is the way it's commonly done. When sintering media of this sort.

When they are dumped into this bucket they can crush into each other so slightly and with the wax they stick to each other. Now as the temperature rises toward final sinter. The binders go into liquitus as this happens to can have migration of the grains and binders between the two touching parts.

this would result in some elephant man looking bb's. I have to say its an extreem version of what happens when we do the process but it is possible.

I'd have to compare the differnce between the differnt types of Tungsten bb's but my guesws is some are Tungsten Carbide and some are Tungsten alloy, which is fairly soft.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old August 2nd, 2005, 08:53 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 864
I think all of these differences in various rounds have a very negligible impact on effectiveness of hunting pheasant. I have hunted pheasant on / off for the last 10+ years with every round imaginable to see if there are any differences. I have killed pheasant just as dead with plain old 7 shot rounds as when using 3 6 shot.

The only time Ive noticed a major difference was when I switched from using regular steel shot to bismuth for goose hunting. That makes such a big difference. I had hardly ever been able to have an instantaneous kill using steel. Using bismuth, I noticed a huge improvement.

I think the most important thing in killing pheasant is getting to the skeet / trap / clay pigeon range and get your shooting skills up to par & then hitting the field. Then the cartridge selection wont matter. It was nice for me since I was able to use my Browning O/U 20 gauge on the range and the field.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old August 2nd, 2005, 11:22 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Mike, thanks for the info. I guess these upland birds are so frail in construction that basically any decent hit will kill them. Sort of like a clay target if you think about it.

I went to Federal's site and looked up the superheavy pellets Federal has. It's called Heavyweight Mag-Shok. It's a lot more than 10% heavier than lead. It's a full 35% heavier than lead. Holy shit. And I thought 10% heavier than lead was a huge deal. 35% heavier than lead is almost unreal.

Here's a pdf about it:


http://www.federalcartridge.com/pdf/MagShokQA_sm.pdf


This vid shows what the pellets look like:


mms://wst1.atk.com/anokastream/ShotShellRevolution.wmv


The pdf says that Heavyweight Mag-Shok is still pending approval as a non-toxic, so Federal is currently loading it only in turkey loads. But I would think it will get approved and then Federal will probably start loading it in all types of different loads.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old August 2nd, 2005, 12:10 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I just received the September/October 2005 issue of Shooting Sportsman.

On the back cover are two round-action SxS guns, one a boxlock and another the Essencia. The boxlock features deep-relief engraving and case colors and looks very much like a London game gun. The Essencia looks like, well, the Essencia. Except this one has a single trigger and Prince of Wales grip.

The caption says "Best-quality round-body boxlock prototype and Essencia 20-bore sidelock, from Krieghoff--see page 55". I hurriedly went to page 55 to see a write-up on the Essencia but it was just the monthly Krieghoff ad. This month's ad has a close-up of the Essencia.

So perhaps Krieghoff will be coming out with an Uptown boxlock in the near future. Time will tell. I still prefer the Essencia though.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old August 2nd, 2005, 02:37 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Killer.

how are you getting Shooting Sportsman before me?
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old August 2nd, 2005, 03:03 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I'm sure it's merely the luck of the draw. Your copy is probably in today's mail.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old August 8th, 2005, 12:36 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
We just got an accurate postal scale in the shop and I weighed my K-80 just now. It weighs 8 lbs. 14.7 oz.

Up to now I didn't know I was shooting a 9 lb. shotgun. No wonder it shoots so soft.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old August 8th, 2005, 02:50 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
We just got an accurate postal scale in the shop and I weighed my K-80 just now. It weighs 8 lbs. 14.7 oz.

Up to now I didn't know I was shooting a 9 lb. shotgun. No wonder it shoots so soft.


wow.

you should be in better shape by now.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old August 8th, 2005, 02:54 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I'm in training for when I have to haul around that 11 lb. double rifle when I hit Africa.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old August 10th, 2005, 10:17 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I was reading the Shooting Sportman BBS and found a link to this site:




There's some funny shit on this site. For instance, peep this:




"Ballistically pure". That's a new one. Up to now I had always believed the various loads and gauges were compromises, but now I know that the 16 somehow achieves ballistic purity and perfection. And this site is so cheesy, it refers to the 12 as the 12 bore and the 20 as the 20 bore, but then refers to the 16 as the 16 gauge. Throughout the site, the 16 is the only one referred to in terms of "gauge" while the others are relegated to "bore". This is obviously a conscious decision, and a rather pathetic attempt to make the 16 stand out from the other bore sizes. That and "ballistically pure" are all this club has.

This 16 Ga. Society is a crack-up. It reminds me of something as cheesy as "The .41 Magnum Fellowship" or something like "The Sacred Order of the 10mm Automatic". I think there are similar cheese clubs for the 24-Bore and 32-Bore as well. All of these clubs will tell you that their cartridge is vastly superior to all others.

Lame.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old August 10th, 2005, 11:06 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
shoot first.

talk later.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old August 10th, 2005, 11:16 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
oh i found some good chit chat about the 471 vs. a nice Spanish gun.

http://bbs.shootingsportsman.com/viewtopic.php?t=23336
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old August 11th, 2005, 08:39 AM
ryanspeed
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
All of these clubs will tell you that their cartridge is vastly superior to all others.

Except for the 9mm P7-pussies club
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old August 11th, 2005, 08:42 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I saw that thread. Lame. I couldn't believe how many lame replies there were on that. It was as if all of the losers on DiscoWeb started talking about the Silver Hawk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Shannon
Can't help but wonder what Beretta's true motives were regarding these changes. Fixed chokes and double triggers SEEM, on the face, to indicate their desire to appeal to the traditionalists among the side-by-side buyers.
However, speaking about just one of those changes... the triggers... in actuality, could the move from SST to DT simply reflect a shift to agreement with the opinion held by one of their most prominent U.S. dealers and 'smiths, Rich Cole, that the 471's SST was a poorly designed and unnecessarily complicated mechanism? I'd love to know the answer, but absent my own personal spy in the Beretta boardroom, my curiosity may remain unsatisfied, 'cause it's doubtful that any Beretta spokesperson would openly admit that the company decided they'd blundered with the 471's SST design, were that the case.

I'm not even into the whole gun scene, but even I know that Beretta came out with the model no. J471437 to try to capture some of the traditionalist market. What is so devious about that? But this Ken Shannon guy claims that Beretta's decision to come out with a Silver Hawk model with double triggers, case colors, and fixed chokes is not a move to appeal to traditionalists, but rather a deviously motivated move to cover up the fact that the trigger mechanism on the single-trigger Silver Hawk sucks. Unreal.


Some evans1010 guy wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by evans1010
just my two cents but after handling a 471 today, it seems to me that these are two completely different guns in the dynamics department. My opinion was that the 471 handled on par with a fence post and seemed to be well over 7lbs. It sure looked nice but I was chunky all over. I would go with the Grulla.

7 lbs. Was he handling the American version of the Silver Hawk with beavertail forend and pistol grip? Of course we don't know because this guy doesn't say. All he says is that the Silver Hawk sucks.


Then this Ken Shannon guy replies again and says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Shannon
From a discussion I had with Joel Etchen a couple of months ago at his Pa. shop, I got the impression that only 471's with DT's and fixed chokes would be manufactured from now on, and that once everyone's current stock of SST/choke tube guns was gone, that'd be it... no more new ones coming out of the Beretta factory.

I can't believe this guy could even say that. Is he stupid enough to believe that Beretta somehow "saw the light" and was going to dump all interchangeable chokes and single triggers for its SxS shotguns? Get real. While many traditionalists prefer double triggers and fixed chokes on their SxS guns, the vast majority of people (and especially the American market) do not. It would be ridiculous for Beretta to dump those guns. Beretta would be dumping what sells. It would be like Land Rover dumping the LR3 and RR3, and making only Defenders.


Then this Ken Shannon sucka adds:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Shannon
Regarding the thread's original question about comparing the Beretta 471 to the Grulla 215 or the Holland 209, I would have nothing to offer since I've never closely examined either of the latter two guns.

Boy, you got that right, sucka. The original poster said that the Silver Hawk is now available with double triggers and case colors and asked for opinions about it compared to comparably priced Grullas. Ken Shannon replies with meaningless bullshit about Beretta's motives for creating the double-trigger model. Then he adds that Beretta's single trigger on the Silver Hawk sucks, as if that even mattered here because Nathan asked about the double-trigger model. Then he gets it wrong by saying the case-colored double-trigger Silver Hawk will be the only model. What a lame ass. The only correct thing he says is that he has nothing to offer to that thread.


Then this Walter Neneman guy says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walter Neneman
I am not sure who the joke is on Beretta or the public. From the release of imitation extra wood on other models, to the stamped trigger parts in the 470 series. The trigger has as many stamped steel parts as could be replaced even if it was a 2 for one part exchange. More parts and Stamped parts is what is in the 470 trigger. Just take the stock off and look. It will make you sick. Their O/U triggers and the auto market have retained quality on the big sales products. They are cutting corners on their SxS line and the extra wood. I would go with the Grulla after looking inside the 470.

If one can't stand stamped parts, that's cool. But then this guy says Beretta's over/under and automatics have quality triggers. Is this guy for real? Has he ever looked at the over/under and automatic triggers? Those triggers have stampings galore. It's as if he said that the Defender has a great drivetrain but the Disco1 has a lousy drivetrain. What an idiot.

Then he mentions Beretta's cheese Xtra Wood, when the J471437 doesn't even have Xtra Wood.

Notice the complete absence of any talk about the J471437's angled locking lugs, a salient feature of the latest Silver Hawks and something that really separates the latest Silver Hawks from other SxS guns. But I guess these guys aren't into that stuff.

There's some good talk about barrel regulation and patterning and how many of the Spanish guns come with poor regulation. Those posts were good. But overall that thread just sucked. I think even this thread blew away that thread on Shoorting Sportman:


Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Moore-N-Moore Sporting Clays Pics johnlee Trips / Events / Reports 15 August 3rd, 2005 10:13 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:15 AM.




Copyright 2001-2012 Expedition Exchange Incorporated. All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.