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  #51  
Old August 11th, 2005, 12:29 PM
avick avick is offline
Andrew Vick
 
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So I just got back from the shooting range across the street from my office. Get up there, and there's a guy with 7 rifles out, shooting very methodically. The gun he's shooting when I pull up is a .338 Ultra Mag. Pretty big gun, even for around here. Next, he pulls out an over/under rifle. Engraving was absolutely fantastic. Turns out it's a Krieghoff Driling, 8x75 with a Zeiss scope. We start chatting, walk out to the 200 yard targets, seems like a nice enough guy.

Turns out it's Marty Stouffer from Wild America.

PS: I've been searching high and low for a pic that I could post, but none have done justice.
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  #52  
Old August 11th, 2005, 12:48 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Krieghoff makes an over/under drilling?
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  #53  
Old August 11th, 2005, 12:52 PM
avick avick is offline
Andrew Vick
 
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I've been doing research, and I think I misspoke. Is a drilling a 3 shot? If so, the gun I saw was an over/under double. Here's what it looked like.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Krieghoff.jpg (7.4 KB, 100 views)
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  #54  
Old August 11th, 2005, 01:46 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Yeah, a drilling is a three-barrel weapon.

If that double you saw was a new gun, it was probably an Ultra. I believe Krieghoff offers the Ultra in both double rifle and Cape Gun configurations. Super nice.

I would love to have one of these in that really fucked up and ugly Jägermeister Grade, the one with the deep relief stag and boar game scenes on the sidelocks and the fish scale checkering on the wood. You know the ones I'm talking about; the super cheesy stag game scene where two bulls are clanging it out and and two cows are standing at the side and watching. Usually the gun has that cheese game scene on one sidelock and an equally cheesy charging boar on the other. LOL. Normally this would be hideous, but it works on these German game guns and rifles.

Add the leather sling and that ridiculous 8x56 Schmidt & Bender telescope (with illuminated reticle for hunting game from a tree stand in low light) mounted with a claw mount and you're getting serious. Add in the 5" long .22LR insert barrel that stores inside the buttstock when you're not using it and you have heaven. This ugly theme works better on the drilling than the double though, as the drilling is funkier by nature. I dig it.
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  #55  
Old August 11th, 2005, 02:03 PM
avick avick is offline
Andrew Vick
 
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Jägermeister Grade is exactly what it was. Very ornate stag and boar scene, I think, with a fair amount of gold. He very carefully sighted in the first shot, then just popped the second. I'd assume he was going for accuracy with the first, and after that barrel heats up, he wasn't too concerned with the other barrel. I suppose you can't have super accuracy on both because of the different barrels anyway, but it was interesting.

His other firearms were largely Dakota, at least the 338 was. Absolutely beautiful, plain stocks.
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  #56  
Old August 11th, 2005, 02:10 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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He was probably trying to follow the timing the Krieghoff factory used when regulating that rifle. When the first barrel on a double rifle is fired, it heats up and expands, which affects the point of impact of the second barrel. Almost all good doubles come with a regulation test target that says something like, "This rifle [Krieghoff Ultra, serial no. 123456, calibre 7x65R] was regulated at [88] meters with [RWS load no. XYZ] ammunition, with [five] seconds elapsed between the first and second shots."

That new Ultra might have adjustable regulation like the Krieghoff Classic. There's a screw in the barrel wedge that lets the user re-regulate the weapon according to different loads. Pretty cool.
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  #57  
Old August 11th, 2005, 02:21 PM
avick avick is offline
Andrew Vick
 
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Waaaay cool. Bought the Benelli, stopped thinking about shotguns. Bought the Sako, stopped thinking about rifles. Now I got the fever
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  #58  
Old August 11th, 2005, 03:11 PM
nosivad_bor nosivad_bor is offline
Rob Davison
 
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Quote:
Turns out it's Marty Stouffer from Wild America


stop the presses.... Marty Stouffer rocks ! he's like the Bob Ross of nature films. that calm voice and gentle way. i grew upwatching him. is he still making the documentries?

rd
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  #59  
Old August 11th, 2005, 04:04 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I dig those Jägermeister models of various German guns. Even HK used to have Jägermeister grades for its hunting rifles. I'm pissed I didn't buy these when they were available.

Here's a pic of my HK770:




Here's a pic of the Jägermeister model HK770:




That's a standard HK940 on the left and a Jägermeister HK770 on the right. It's even uglier than a K-80. I love it.
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  #60  
Old August 11th, 2005, 04:58 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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All you need to go with that look is your loden huete with an edelweiss, some lederhosen and a meerschaum.
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  #61  
Old August 11th, 2005, 07:49 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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does jagermeister mean "plastic trigger guard"?
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  #62  
Old August 11th, 2005, 11:18 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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John-

Speaking of unique-but-ugly German drillings have you ever checked out Heym's model 35 sidelock O/U or 37V "Vierling"?

I admit I am intrigued by them.

http://www.heym-waffenfabrik.de/engl...l/st_Dril.html

http://www.heym-waffenfabrik.de/engl.../st_Vierl.html
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  #63  
Old August 11th, 2005, 11:52 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I love the plastic trigger guards on some of the German guns. To me, it's just as funky as the fish scale checkering. I was sort of bummed when the latest Krieghoff drillings and doubles didn't come with plastic trigger guards.

Krieghoff's latest drilling--the Quadro--has the steel trigger guard:




Krieghoff's latest single-shot--the Hubertus--has the steel trigger guard:




Krieghoff's latest over/under double rifle and Cape Gun--the Ultra--has the steel trigger guard:




Krieghoff's latest SxS double rifle and Cape Gun--the Classic--has the steel trigger guard:




Even the Essencia has a steel trigger guard:




I was really bummed when I realized the Essencia had a steel trigger guard. This was the first press release shot of the Essencia that I saw a few years ago:




That angle and the cheesy photo cropping made me think the Essencia had the plastic trigger guard. Perhaps it was wishful thinking on my part. It was only later on when Krieghoff released other shots of the Essencia that I realized it had a steel trigger guard. The steel trigger guard looks great on the Essencia, no doubt. But I would have loved it if the Essencia had a plastic trigger guard like this drilling:




The skip-line checkering on that drilling is also very German and very cool, but I prefer the ugliness of the fish scale checkering on these types of guns. The thick, plastic trigger guards are a perfect match with the fish scale checkering and the cheeseball game scene engravings on these guns.

To my way of looking at things, the plastic trigger guards on the HK300, HK630, HK770, and HK940 are very sweet. They remind me of the plastic trigger guards on many of the traditional German guns. Add the cheesy Jägermeister engraving to the receiver and the fish scale checkering to the stock with hog's back comb and schnabel forend and you have a very funky rifle. Add to this the roller-delayed blowback method of operation, fluted chamber, hammer forged polygonal rifling, and quickly detachable HK05 claw mount holding your Schmidt & Bender telescope with integral mounting rail and you have a masterpiece.

Greg, those Heyms are nice. I prefer the Krieghoffs to the Heyms because of Krieghoff's decocking ability and cleaner lock-up (the Krieghoff's don't employ the Greener crossbolt), but the Heyms are very sweet. On the other hand, one might argue that the more complicated-looking Greener Crossbolt design is more in line with these hideously ugly weapons than are cleaner designs like the Purdey's hidden third bite system. Whatever the case, I wouldn't be too upset if I had some Heym drillings on my gun rack. They're sweet.

I'm not a vierling kind of guy though, as they're too funky even for me. But I love drillings. They're funky but not too funky. Krieghoff also makes all kinds of barrel inserts for its drillings, which sort of negates the need for a vierling. It's very easy to turn a standard drilling into a Bock Drilling by putting an insert rifle barrel into one of the shotgun barrels. Or can easily reduce the rifle barrel into a smaller bore. For example, one can get his drilling chambered for 9.3x74R and get various insert barrels for that rifle barrel for smaller game. I think Krieghoff will even regulate the insert barrels so that they hit to the same point of impact as the primary chambering of the rifle barrel. Krieghoff offers this same service on its Bock Drilling rifle barrel inserts. Very cool.
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  #64  
Old August 12th, 2005, 07:23 AM
avick avick is offline
Andrew Vick
 
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LOL, yes it was Marty in the flesh. I guy I work with who is from Penn as well knew all about him. I vaguely remember him, and I think he is still making movies and documentaries.

What's up with a plastic trigger guard? Was that in the past?
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  #65  
Old August 12th, 2005, 07:57 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Maybe they were made of horn in the past? I'm not sure. But the modern renditions are made of plastic.

They're disappearing little by little though. More and more, the German gunmakers are putting steel trigger guards on their rifles and guns. I also think the whole Germanic gun thing is slowly fading away, as the German makers are are slowly going to the English pattern weapons. A lot of the current German guns are looking like this Merkel:




That's obviously still German-looking, especially the Schmidt & Bender rail telescope and claw mount. But the checkering is standard checkering instead of the skip-line or fish scale designs. The schnabel on the forend has disappeared. The action is case colored instead of nickel plated.

Usually now the Jägermeister grades are special-order items. I really can't say this is a bad thing though. It's still available for those who want it, but the standard catalog items are more mainstream and make the companies money. So everyone's happy.

Take Krieghoff, for example. Krieghoff doesn't really make Best guns. Its guns are normal production guns. The Essencia isn't really a true Krieghoff, since it's made by some small German firm and rebadged with the Krieghoff name. But Krieghoff will make Best guns if the customer wants it and can afford it:




That's a Krieghoff Neptun, and it's obviously going to be a Best gun by anyone's definition. Just imagine that Neptun with deep-relief game scenes and the fish scale checkering. Oooh la la. That Neptun is also a real sidelock and the locks are hand detachable. You can barely see the flush release mechanism in that pic above. Here's a close-up of what the release looks like:




Just stick your fingernail under the flap and hinge it open. Then turn it like a key and unthread the retaining screw until the locks pop out. Very cool.

My old boss had a neighbor who would let my boss borrow his Krieghoff Ulm with hand-detachable sidelocks. That was the same gun that would really break the clays hard for me. I used to love removing the sidelocks on that gun.

The locks are very cool as well. They're all high tech and look like this:




Many will cringe at presence of C-clips, coil springs, and roll pins but I dig it. That Best Neptun probably has nearly identical locks, but just finished to Best quality standards with all of the tool marks polished out, a higher level of fitting overall, and the interceptor's hinge screw timed so that the slot is oriented front to back.
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  #66  
Old August 12th, 2005, 11:05 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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but what purpose does a plastic trigger guard serve or is this one of those "have you ever seen anyone break a stock drive flange?" sort of thing?
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  #67  
Old August 12th, 2005, 11:42 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I'm not sure what purpose the plastic trigger guard serves. Perhaps the early ones were made out of horn and thus had a decorative function on the gun. I don't know. If they were made of horn, then they would definitely look cool on the guns. Nice horn is just as beautiful as nice wood. But again, I don't know if the early ones were horn.

If that is correct, then the plastic trigger guard today is merely a holdover from the early days. It's a strange thing I admit, but I still dig it on these German guns. These guns are not pretty. They're rather ugly in fact. And it just adds to the ugliness that one is paying $10k or $20k or even $30k for these things and getting them with plastic trigger guards.
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  #68  
Old August 12th, 2005, 04:11 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Here's another sweet drilling. Cabela's has, among other Krieghoff guns and rifles, a Neptun drilling:




The Neptun is an older and now-discontinued Krieghoff drilling. The Neptun was also an ejector. I believe the current Krieghoff offerings are all extractors. One of my friends from law school had a neighbor who had a Neptun in 16/16/9.3x74R with the dinky .22LR insert barrel that was stored in the buttstock when not in use. The .22LR insert barrel was awesome, because it was regulated to the same point of impact as the rifle barrel and it had its own extractor that would mate with the 9.3's ejector and would eject .22LR empties when you opened the gun after discharging the insert rifle barrel. Imagine opening that huge gun and a dinky rimfire case ejects out of the lower barrel! How cool is that? And the .22LR insert barrel was eccentric with the 9.3 bore, so that the centerfire firing pin could be used on the rimfire insert.

Note the lack of holes for a claw mount on this gun's rib. For the rear sight, this gun has only the flip-up open rear sight. So the gun is very clean overall:




Note the cool ass "Shotguns of Ulm" sticker with unique GU logo in the first pic. I want the sticker more than the drilling.
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  #69  
Old August 14th, 2005, 11:09 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Greg, I was Googling for Heym drillings and found two that I thought you might like.

The first one is a standard production model Heym at Drilling Hotline:






The description reads:


"Heym Drilling

1968
Model 33 Deluxe
20/20 ga.(70mm) over .270 Win.
Automatic Rifle Sight flips up when rifle barrel is selected
Scallope Boxlock Greener type crossbolt,
side clips and double lugs with extra under pin
under 7 pounds

$4850 (C215)"


The "Automatic Rifle Sight flips up when rifle barrel is selected" is intriguing. This feature may be common, but I haven't seen it before. Too bad Drilling Hotline doesn't have pics of the rear sight. I'd love to know how this system works.

This gun is a crack-up, with its plastic trigger guard and no less than four crossbolts in the stock and action. It's crossbolt city. I dig it. The only thing conventional about it is the 20/20/.270 chambering. Something weird like 16/16/7X57R or very German standard like 16/16/9.3x74R would have been more appropriate for this weirdling, I think.


The second is a high-grade Heym at Puglisi Gun Emporium:










The description reads:

"$6,750.00

Game scene engraved with scope mounts, bullet trap, cocking indicators. LOP 15 inch

Stock Number 0565
Make Heym
Model Drilling
Action SxS Shotgun over Rifle Barrel
Barrel Chamber 2 1/2 in
Barrel Length 27 in
Barrel Chokes .028 - .040
Caliber 7x57R
Gauge 16 ga
Grip Capped Pistol Grip
Ejectors Extractor
Forend Splinter Forend
LOP 15 in
Stock Cheek Piece Stock with Bullet Trap
Trigger Double Triggers
Type of Butt Horn Butt Plate
Weight 7 1/2 lbs"


This second Heym is really nice. Unless there's something wrong with the gun, $7k for it seems like a really good deal and it's actually beautiful. The splinter forend with very slight schnabel is very gracefully shaped and the furniture wood is very nice. The gun looks almost as if some London maker got confused and decided to make a German-looking weapon.

I'm also digging the 16/16/7x57R chambering. Only negative is the 2.5" chambers for the 16. That might be why the asking price is only $7k. Who knows.
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  #70  
Old August 14th, 2005, 11:28 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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And of course no drilling talk could ever be complete without reference to that Holiest of Holy Drillings: the Luftwaffe Drilling. Imagine getting issued one of these things:



I can't believe the Luftwaffe issued those things. Production on those must have made the BREN and MG34 production seem lightning-fast by comparison. But whatever the logistical burden to produce such pieces in quantity, it was very cool for the Luftwaffe to do it.

And then imagine getting issued these to go along with that drilling:






How cool would that be?
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  #71  
Old August 14th, 2005, 05:50 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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I may be incorrect, but I believe all those multiple locks are required by German proof houses or hunting laws for "safety". They do seem overly redundant.

As fascinating as the drillings and vierlings are from a techinical standpoint, I can't imagine actually using them. What little hunting I do would not suit their purpose. I'm sure I would end up by accident trying to pull down a pheasant with .22 Hornet...

Weren't the Luftwaffe drillings "award" guns rather than survival guns? I'm sure H. Goering thought it was a great idea while wandering around Karinhalle in some morphine-induced state while perusing the game on the walls.
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  #72  
Old August 14th, 2005, 09:35 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I'm not sure what the story is with the Greener Crossbolts on German guns. The Greener Crossbolt is a British innovation, so it seems odd to me that it found such widespread use on German hunting weapons. The Greener Crossbolts are very common on German guns like the Heyms and Krieghoffs like the Ulm and Neptun, so perhaps they were required at one time.

But then again it would seem very odd to me to base proof standards on locking system classification instead of resistance to a particular proof cartridge's pressures without damage or malfunction. I'm not privy to German proofing specifications, but the latest Krieghoff hunting guns and rifles feature the Purdey's hidden third bite system instead of the Greener Crossbolt, and these guns certainly pass Ulm Proof House standards. An extreme example might be the older Heckler & Koch family of self-loaders. The G3 is an unlocked .308, and yet the G3 pass Ulm Proof House standards. The .308 is certainly a cartridge that is usually chambered in locking-breech weapons. If the Ulm Proof House passes a blowback .308 then I would think it would pass a three-bite drilling.

I'm just as unsure about the Luftwaffe Drilling as I am about Ulm Proof House standards. The Luftwaffe Drilling could very well have been some sort of special issue or award gun. I just can't imagine Sauer could produce them in the kind of quantities the Luftwaffe required if they were going to be issued to Luftwaffe pilots at large. But on the other hand, the Luftwaffe Drilling wouldn't be that different from other difficult-to-manufacture German weapons like the Luger and MG34 that the Germans employed early in the War when things were going very well and gave up on when things got rough later in the war.

It's inspiring to look at the early German weapons. They were supremely manufactured, almost Best quality, and were issued to soldiers of a people who believed that they were the Master Race and were going to rule the earth. Parts on these weapons were commonly hand-fitted and finished to a very high degree. Weapons like the MG34 featured a machined barrel jacket, complex saddle drum magazine that alernated between the left and right magazines during bursts, wooden furniture with oil finish, a bolt carrier that required over 200 machining operations, accessory anti-aircraft sight, twin triggers for easy selection of firing mode, buffered tripod with dial sight, etc. If you have never seen how the barrel is swapped on a MG34, I suggest you check it out. My jaw dropped the first time I saw it. It's very impressively complex and the weapon's components must be made to a very high standard for the system to work. Lugers were equally superb, as were the early k98's. I could see how the Luftwaffe Drilling fit into this early and optimistic scheme of weaponry, a scheme that didn't and couldn't last.
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  #73  
Old August 14th, 2005, 10:25 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Anyone else remember these timepiece/gun/knife porn shots?


Kyle:



Mike Rupp:



Steve Rupp:



Me:



Note the plastic trigger guard. Hit that little button at the rear of the trigger guard and the entire trigger pack hinges forward and away from the receiver. So the HK300 is a triggerlock of sorts.


Aaah, the memories....
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  #74  
Old August 17th, 2005, 10:16 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I thought Cabela's was going Uptown with the Krieghoff thing. Turns out Bass Pro Shops has Krieghoffs as well. Check out this Neptun:




This is a Bock Drilling, with one shotgun barrel and two rifle barrels. The description at Bass Pro says the left barrel is a 16-Bore (2.75"), the right barrel is a .222 Remington, and the bottom barrel is a 7x65R. I don't know what the hell the customer was thinking when he specified that combination.

The telescope is a bit weird too, as the objective bell mounts to the forward claw mount via a ring instead of the usual dovetail rail that is machined together with the scope tube and objective bell. Zeiss makes telescopes with forward mounting rails, so this set-up is a little funky (bad funky; not good funky).

The trigger guard is steel but is shaped to look like the plastic trigger guards:




That's a very nice compromise. The trigger guard looks traditional but isn't plastic. I would still prefer the plastic on something this cheesy and ugly (who hunts flushing ducks with a dog?), but this trigger guard is sweet. Here's a bottom view of the trigger guard:




The left sideplate features some cheesy husband and wife stag team:




The wood is very German with skip-line checkering, hog's back comb, and round cheekpiece:




Thank God there's at least some plastic on this thing. The buttplate is plastic. Aaaah, so nice.

Except for the weird chamberings, that drilling is pretty sweet. Asking price is $17,499. That cracks me up. Does $17,499 sound any better than $17,500? I guess Bass Pro is accustomed to pricing stuff like that. The rednecks at Bass Pro can't spell "Neptun" either. Neither can the guys at Cabela's. Both of them spell it "Neptune". The rednecks at Bass Pro can't spell "Krieghoff Teck" either. Check out:




Pretty soon they'll be selling the "Krieghoff Oolm" and the "Krieghoff Trump" as well. These suckas don't even know what they have. Damn, I'm jealous.
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  #75  
Old August 18th, 2005, 07:13 AM
avick avick is offline
Andrew Vick
 
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LMAO
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