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  #76  
Old August 18th, 2005, 02:02 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
(who hunts flushing ducks with a dog?)


Actually...

The majority of duck hunters engage in "jump shooting" with dogs from time to time. Not all duck hunting is "pass" or "blind" shooting and many hunters mix the two or break the monotony of pass shooting or decoying with jaunts up the water ways to flush waterfowl. In these situations a dog is as useful if not necessary as ever. Some hunters even jump shoot exclusively. The dog pictured on that particular gun is a German Shorthaired Pointer one of the so called "versatiles". These dogs are know for their ability to both point (which flushers such as labs and spaniels do not) AND retrieve in water. This dog is, not suprisingly, the most widely employed dog in Germany for all field pursuits and as such is most often called upon for duck duty. Being an upland dog as well it is most comfortable "working" birds as one would jump shooting or flushing rather than sitting at hell in a blind. The drilling itself in many ways is the perfect firarm parallel to the GSP or other versatile dogs. One gun for everything. One dog for everything. Of course the Lab is the American version of the versatile in many senses but in Germany it is the GSP or one of its relatives. The drilling like the GSP is up to a variety of tasks. It is argued, perfect for none, but up to the challenge of any field pursuit. Whatismore a drilling is far more likely to be employed (in Germany) to shoot waterfowl over any other type of wingshooting because its handling characterstics are not as well suited to upland shooting.


you asked.
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  #77  
Old August 18th, 2005, 02:08 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Oh damn. I had no idea. Good to know.
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  #78  
Old August 25th, 2005, 03:51 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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2005 marks the 25th anniversary of the K-80 and Krieghoff is bringing back the old-school "K80" machine engraving for the anniversary model:




Here's the description:

"Our Flagship K-80 reached its 25th anniversary in 2005, quite a milestone in today’s world. The interest in the K-80 by competitive and recreational shooters is greater than ever. That alone speaks to the legendary performance, quality and value of the gun, making it even more popular than it was 25 years ago. To commemorate the event we are offering a 25th Anniversary Edition. The gun features a highly polished receiver with blued finish, the original K-80 logo in sterling silver on the receiver sides, sterling silver border lines, sterling silver broken target on the top latch, “XXV” in sterling silver on the trigger guard (not shown on picture) and a special “K-80 25 years” ribbon design in sterling silver on the bottom of the receiver. To complete the 25th Anniversary Edition, the gun comes in a special silver case featuring the 25th Anniversary logo, black ultra suede cloth interior with specially designed Krieghoff outside panels. The 25th Anniversary Edition can be ordered in any K-80 configuration. It includes appropriate wood upgrade. Contact your knowledgeable Krieghoff dealer for further details."

I'm not crazy about the sterling stuff and the cheeseball broken target on the top latch, but at least it's nice to see that Krieghoff still has the tooling available for the K80 machine engraving. Perhaps that engraving pattern is still available on a special-order basis or something.

I'm still holding my breath for Krieghoff to bring back the "K80" and "SHOTGUNS of ULM" machine engravings as a standard item. This anniversary edition ain't it, but at least it's a start.
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  #79  
Old December 7th, 2005, 01:11 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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For those of you who are into such things:


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  #80  
Old December 7th, 2005, 01:34 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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So does LeArms buy a "regular" Essencia then do the custom inlay themselves?
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  #81  
Old December 7th, 2005, 01:45 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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No, LeArmes does a very large order with Krieghoff for the guns with special engraving and stock patterns, and Krieghoff gives LeArmes an exclusive on these configurations.

I'm not into the gold birdie thing and Prince of Wales grips, but many like such things and I'm sure these guns will sell well even at the very high asking prices for such pieces.
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  #82  
Old December 7th, 2005, 03:32 PM
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Jack Quinlan
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someone is making a fortune removing the external hammers from ancient doubles.
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  #83  
Old December 7th, 2005, 05:34 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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You love it.

I know you're digging that gold birdie shit on the locks too.
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  #84  
Old December 9th, 2005, 06:40 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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You may have seen this pic before:




Well, I guess it's official:




Some pics of the new Krieghoff Essencia Boxlock:










If you want, the "Prince of Whales" grip is an option.
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  #85  
Old April 5th, 2006, 03:53 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Cabela's has a 16-Bore Essencia Boxlock in stock:


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...krig16_owa.jsp


Cost is considerably less than the sidelock Essencia:


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/co...kesl16_leh.jsp
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  #86  
Old April 7th, 2006, 10:32 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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that is 6.02x10^23 better than the sidelock.

however, all the krieghoff action is gone for me.
I just read that Shooting Sportsman article about the house and learned that they produced the Remington R32 and that in some way or other the K80 came out of that work.

barf.
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  #87  
Old April 7th, 2006, 03:23 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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You didn't know the K-80 is a modern Remington 32? LOL. I thought you knew that. The two guns are all but identical in appearance.

Here's a Remington 32:




Here's a Krieghoff K-32:




And here's a Krieghoff K-80:




Krieghoff makes no secret of it either. Check out page 4 of this pdf:


http://www.krieghoff.com/pages/downloads/K80K20.pdf


Man, if only your understanding of The Gun And Its Development went beyond nominal bore size or name brand.....
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  #88  
Old April 7th, 2006, 05:17 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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LOL.

Man I didn't know any of that shit and I still managed not to buy a K80.
Some things you can just feel.

Mainly the R32 discovery blows a huge hole in the "German innovation" tradition.

I'm sure they changed some things (introduced coil springs?) but all in all, it's just a copy of some American idea?
lame.

what's the appeal then?
I figured the one thing the K80 had going for it was that it was unique and innovative.
turns out it's neither.
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  #89  
Old April 7th, 2006, 07:11 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Man I didn't know any of that shit and I still managed not to buy a K80. Some things you can just feel.


You "managed" not to buy a K-80? Oh man, talk to my hand. You own many guns, but you don't own a single gun that cost more than $1,000. A base-model K-80 costs $10,000. And you "managed" not to buy a K-80? Please.

Some things you can just feel? LOL. If that is so, then why was it a blow to you when you realized the K-80 is a modern Remington 32? Could it be because you previously held the K-80 in high regard only because you thought it was a "Krieghoff", i.e., fancy German name brand and "Remington" isn't gourmet enough for you?

Did you have the same reaction to your Holy Grail Purdey's Funeral Guns when you realized that the term "funeral gun" is not a London Gun trade term at all, but was a mere marketing ploy by some American used gun dealer to increase the second-hand value of unfinished London guns that nobody wanted to buy and were just sitting on the used gun rack? When I read that article in Shooting Sportsman about funeral guns, I was rolling. "We at Boss & Co. make only Best guns and refuse to make such unfinished guns." "We at Holland & Holland, Ltd. have sent out guns in the black, but only to let the customer test fire the weapons before final finishing. We would never send out the guns like that to order." That is some seriously funny shit. Do you not want a Funeral Gun now?

I'm seeing a pattern here. Is this like your argument that 1 oz. of shot @ 1250 f/s is "perfection" when fired through a 16, but the identical load becomes plebeian when fired through a 20 or 12?

Have you ever heard the saying, "same wine, different bottle"? You sound like someone who likes the wine out of one bottle, but doesn't like the identical wine from another bottle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
Mainly the R32 discovery blows a huge hole in the "German innovation" tradition. I'm sure they changed some things (introduced coil springs?) but all in all, it's just a copy of some American idea? lame.


Actually, I'd like to hear from you how the K-80 differs from the Remington 32. It would be interesting to hear this kind of technical info from someone who likes fine guns based on name brand alone.

(Krieghoff has made numerous refinements to the Remington 32 design. Some of these are internal, but many are not. They are performance refinements Remington would never have made because they increased prodution cost, and the reason Remington dropped the 32 was because production cost was deemed by Remington to be too high already.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
what's the appeal then? I figured the one thing the K80 had going for it was that it was unique and innovative. turns out it's neither.


What's the appeal of the K-80? Obviously, for you it was the name.

The appeal of the K-80 to me is entirely different. I like the K-80 for more than the name. Sure, the Krieghoff name adds appeal to me. I don't own a Remington 32 and I do own a K-80. But I knew going in that the K-80 was a modern Remington 32. All K-80 fans know this. It did not diminish the apppeal of the K-80 for me.

As an aside, the K-80 would probably still be called the K-32 today had it not been for a contractual dispute with duPONT/Krieghoff about USA importation rights to the K-32. The story I hear (and I have no reason to believe it is not true) is that duPONT/Krieghoff had exclusive rights to the trademark "Krieghoff" in the USA, as well as the exclusive USA importation rights to the K-32. When Krieghoff wanted to form Krieghoff International and import the K-32 into the United States, duPONT/Krieghoff objected. Krieghoff then re-designed the K-32 slightly and renamed it the K-80 (this was in 1980) and started importing the K-80 under the trade name "Shotguns of Ulm". Take a look at my K-80. It doesn't say "Krieghoff" anywhere on it. Rather, it says "Shotguns of Ulm". Eventually, duPONT/Krieghoff broke down and gave in. Shotguns of Ulm became "Krieghoff International" and Krieghoff International still imports the K-80 today. The switch in model designation was not in any way motivated by a desire to hide the origin of the K-80's design.
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  #90  
Old April 7th, 2006, 09:08 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee

What's the appeal of the K-80?


There is none.

never was man.

Any kind words I've said about that gun, were just a polite gesture.

where did I EVER, EVER say I had any desire for that thing?

There's nothing "fancy" to me about a German gun name.
That's your bag.

I stand by the funeral guns.
Whether Purdey intended the guns to leave that way or not, I really like the way they look. I wish my Uggies were blacked instead of case-colored.

You paid what? 5K for your K80.
If I wanted a 5K gun, I could have it.
It's not a paltry sum to me, but it's doable. Hardly out of my reach just because I don't elect to spend my money that way.
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  #91  
Old April 8th, 2006, 09:35 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Yeah, there's no appeal to the K-80 design. There never was. That's why when Remington discontinued the 32, a group of shotgunners bought the rights to the design and started interviewing suitable manufacturers. They just couldn't let the design die, even though there was no appeal to it and there never was. Have you ever seen this kind of devotion with any other discontinued firearm?

The Remington 32 is, to me, one of the Holy Trinity of American arms making. The other two are the Smith & Wesson .44 Triple Lock and the Winchester Model 70. All three weapons were vastly superior to their contemporaries in design, aesthetics, and performance. They were a match for any weapon manufactured by anyone else in America, or in any other country for that matter. For example, the .44 Triple Lock was a match for any Luger ever made by Deutsche Waffen und Munitions Fabriken. The Model 70 was a match for any 98 sporter from Waffenfabrik Mauser. As for the Remington 32, it really had no contemporaries because it was so ahead of its time. The 32's closest competition might be a Browning Superposed, and there it's no contest.

The Remington 32, S&W Triple Lock, and Winchester Model 70 all had a huge cult following. However, all three were discontinued by their respective factories because all were too costly to produce. But did pistoleros buy the rights to the Triple Lock from Smith & Wesson and go in search of another manufacturer? No. Did riflemen buy the rights to the pre-64 Model 70 from Winchester and go in search of another manufacturer? No. But the Remington 32 fans did. And I'm grateful they did.

Perhaps one day you may truly understand shotgun design. I'm not talking about engraving or wood grade or impressive name brands, but rather about locking strength and longevity and bending forces and patterning/regulation and other such matters. If that day ever comes, I think you will realize the genius behind the K-80's design.
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  #92  
Old April 8th, 2006, 09:52 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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"Our R & D activity here at Gunsite continues toward the construction of the Ultimate Rifle. (We have the Ultimate Pistol now.)

"Our progress is somewhat diverted by certain obvious considerations aobut the marketing of rifles. Who buys them? And why does the buyer want what he wants? The construction of a really good rifle is somewhat beside the point if the people who constitute the market rarely know much about what it is they are going to buy.

"The market may be divided into three categories, as follows:

"First, the Rednecks (with due apologies to those of our friends who consider themselves to be Rednecks). These people are hunters, and they are mainly concerned with price. They buy their guns over-the-counter at the hardware store and they are much inclined to purchase what pappy has used all these years, assuming pappy's rifle was lost over the side of the bass boat. Rifles for these people must be serviceable and cheap, and nothing more. Many examples will occur to you.

"Second, the Purists. These people have money to spend and their ideas of riflecraft are heavily involved with convention, and conventional ideas of beauty. They prize deep gloss finishes, fine hand-checkering, luxurious wood, custom barrels, and handworked embellishments. Purists prize their rifles more as artifacts than as tools, and most of what they purchase is too artistic to be exposed to the hardships of the field. Price for them is really of no consequence, and for that matter neither is utility. These people are usually more bon vivants than marksmen.

"Third, there are the Hobby-shooters. These people are immensely concerned with intrinsic accuracy, and spend long hours at the bench--both in the shop and the field. They may have some interest in price, but essentially what they want is a half-inch group. They shoot a good deal but rarely under field conditions. They re-zero constantly. Fiddling with their sights becomes an obsession. Handling, reliability, speed, and handiness are minor considerations.

"As we pursue essential excellence, therefore, we find that we are not designing for the majority of people who buy weapons, but only for those few who understand the purpose of the exercise.

"We should have Scout II (expensive) and Scout III (moderate) ready for duplication by the end of the year. We wonder, however, if anyone cares."


Jeff Cooper wrote that in 1983 about riflemen, and it's as true today about riflemen as well as shotgunners.
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  #93  
Old April 8th, 2006, 05:44 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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If the saying "they just don't make them like that any more" ever applied to firearms, it applies to the .44 Triple Lock. That weapon is just wonderful.
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  #94  
Old April 9th, 2006, 03:35 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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I've heard arguments to both survival and awards for the drillings, Charles. It seems hard to believe that any German pilot would want to lug around a full-size long rifle in the cockpit in North Africa.

Guess I'm in both contingents above as I find the Gatlings interesting as well.
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  #95  
Old April 9th, 2006, 03:48 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Don't know if this was posted before but here's an interesting drilling (if historically true):

http://www.superfastcash.com/images/ado1.jpg
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  #96  
Old April 10th, 2006, 08:23 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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how long are the bbls on that neptune?

they look like they are 24" or less!
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  #97  
Old April 10th, 2006, 03:39 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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I must be a douchebag as well. I think the Gatlings are interesting weapons. They're especially cool on camel back:




I would love to fire a Gatling mounted like that.
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  #98  
Old April 11th, 2006, 08:20 AM
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Jack Quinlan
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I could see that camel getting very upset, very quickly.
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  #99  
Old April 11th, 2006, 08:53 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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Doesn't the hump get soft and floppy as the camel uses the water inside?
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  #100  
Old April 11th, 2006, 06:58 PM
nosivad_bor nosivad_bor is offline
Rob Davison
 
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i just imagened a large inverted hairy uvula...
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