Expedition Exchange Bulletin Boards  

Go Back   Expedition Exchange Bulletin Boards > General
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old October 26th, 2005, 06:29 PM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
Gun Porn - New HK 417

So, John, whadayathink? A g3 it's not.



Alas, another bit of the increasingly common "unobtainium"

-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old October 26th, 2005, 07:30 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Oh my God. What the fuck is that?

Is that a real HK model or some homemade booty fab by gun butcher? I suspect the former since there's a Schmidt & Bender telescope on it, and every booty fab gun butcher just HAS to use a Tasco. But I can't believe HK made such a monstrosity.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old October 26th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
John, you are nothing if not predictable in regards to your reverence of HK's design lineage. I'm afraid that I have the unpleasant duty to inform you that this is a real-live HK-made weapon. Take heart, though, it's just a prototype.

Quote:
a pic of the new 7.62 mm HK 417 on the 10-8 forums:
Seems they're using a G 3 mag with flapper release and no bolt hold-open as of now but intend to create a new one which will use existing side release. Barrels of 12 and 22" in prototypes, 18" said to be planned. Reported accuracy of 1 MOA to 500 yards. Participants in test firing say highly reliable and good controllability in rapid shots and short full-auto bursts.

Not unexpectedly, the test-firers were so impressed that they said it was going to take semi-auto .308 rifles to a new level.

My condolences, bro.

-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old October 27th, 2005, 08:35 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
Seems they're using a G 3 mag with flapper release and no bolt hold-open as of now but intend to create a new one which will use existing side release.


I guess it would have been too difficult for HK to use the AR10/SR25 magazines. So instead HK used the G3 magazine (which doesn't support a hold-open). Granted, the G3 magazine is very strong, but stick to a design that doesn't support a hold-open? The cocking handle on the AR isn't exactly the easiest to use. Lame.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
Barrels of 12 and 22" in prototypes, 18" said to be planned. Reported accuracy of 1 MOA to 500 yards.


I always wanted a 12" .308 and now my dream can become a reality. Can you imagine what the muzzle flash and blast are like from a 12" .308? I wonder what the velocity is like too. I wonder if the .308 would be reduced to .30-30 levels from such a short barrel. Of course the "participants" didn't chronograph any rounds during their tests.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
Participants in test firing say highly reliable and good controllability in rapid shots and short full-auto bursts.

This is also hilarious. Good controllability in full-auto mode from a 12" .308? Whom are these guys trying to kid? Sure, the HK417 has the AR's inline construction and buffer assembly, but there are limits. For example, the FG42 and StG57 both have inline construction and much greater weapon weight, and neither of these weapons is controllable in handheld full-auto mode. From the FG42 to the G3 to the StG57 to the M14 to the FAL, designers have tried and tried but have been unable to produce a full-auto controllable .308. What is so different about the HK417 that it suddenly becomes controllable? If it's there, I don't see it.

Also, I can't help but think that buttstock is totally inadequate for .308 use. The butt profile is all wrong. I think HK was trying to mimic the shitty convex butt profile on the telescoping G3 and early G33 buttstocks. Why they would want to do that is beyond me. If HK is into mimicing stuff, why not mimic the MP5 and late G33 concave buttstocks instead?

And that cheeseball ventilated recoil pad is hideous. I think HK was trying to cater to the American market. Americans just love ventilated recoil pads. Why I do not know. The ventilated pads collect trash and are hideously ugly, but they are no more effective at attenuating perceived recoil than closed designs.

It will be interesting to see if HK was able to eliminate the slop inherent in the CAR buttstock design. HK's molding technology is very sophisticated and HK is able to mold weapons furniture without shrinkage or other change in dimensions. But if HK molds the buttstock so that there is no slop between the buttstock and the buffer tube, then I would think the telescoping operation would be compromised when the weapon gets dirty in the field. Time will tell on this one.

I just love the parade ground rear sling swivel on the buttstock. Like anyone is going to employ a loop sling with this weapon.

And if HK changed so many things, why didn't HK change that nasty A2 pistol grip design? The finger swell is too low on it, and the sharp-edged hole at the rear of the trigger guard is still present. I would think this is even more of a problem on the HK417 than it is on the .223 weapons because of the greater weight. If HK was changing around everything, HK should have redesigned the pistol grip.

I wonder if the HK417 has the lame-ass forward assist. If it did, that would make this weapon a true classic.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old October 27th, 2005, 08:48 AM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
Don't hold back, John. Tell us how you really feel!

Seems like there's been a changing of the guard over at HK, and not for the better based upon your comments. Maybe they saw some writing on the wall about future contracts and decided to compromise their design standards in order to get some/stay in business.

Still, as you suggest, it's possible that while the 416 & 417 may be trying to be the proverbial silk purses made from sows' ears, they'll likely be the best renditions of Stoner's design to date.

To see the silver lining, just think what your classic HK is worth nowadays?
-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old October 27th, 2005, 10:27 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
I'm not anti-AR at all. I love the AR.

I'm just anti-HKAR.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old October 27th, 2005, 11:16 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Damn, HK is going lower and lower by the minute. All of my HK magazines are date-coded.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old October 27th, 2005, 11:10 PM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
No, Jeremy, I haven't. My forays into the world of .308 have been mostly old-school. I bought some StG58's (FAL clones) that I still have along with a Springfield Armory M1A. I briefly owned a Stoner SR-25 but sold it a year or two after I bought it. What's the story behind the SIG 550?

-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old October 28th, 2005, 10:08 AM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
Forgot to mention one other .308 I owned - an HK91. Some of you know this story already, but it's worth a smirk for those who don't.

I used to own a cabinet shop/construction company many, many years ago. One day at lunch one of my partner's carpenter buddies shows up and the talk somehow gets onto guns. In the course of conversation this guy says he has an HK99 (or some similar non-existent model number). I said that didn't exist. This would've been sometime following the first or second California ban so I asked if he'd registered it (all of mine are registered). He said he hadn't registered it but it was for sale.

I asked how he came to own it - turns out he won it in a poker game. He couldn't care less about it - he was just hoping to turn it into the cash his opponent said it was worth - $600!! I asked him to bring it by the shop and a few days later he did. Turns out it was an HK91. Of course, being a lover of military-style rifles, I was immediately interested. I contacted California DOJ and found that they received such a poor response to the law requiring registration that they were accepting them well past the initial grace period.

With that I bought the rifle, registered it, and had fun for a couple of years. Eventually I needed to 'thin the herd' and I sold the HK out of state for about $1,200 if memory serves. John didn't know me at the time, or he might've killed me to prevent this. I still laugh when I recall telling him this story and him saying, "Talk to the hand! Talk to the hand!" Among my reasons for ditching the rifle were its weight (I remember it being a really heavy rifle - I put the collapsing stock on which didn't help in that regard) and the no-hold-open-when-empty aspect of the magazines. In a perfect world (i.e. one where I made more money) I would've kept it, but alas, life wasn't (and isn't) perfect.

-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old October 28th, 2005, 10:16 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Oh man, I still shed a little tear every time I hear that story.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old October 28th, 2005, 10:29 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
This Picatinny rail fad is out of control.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old October 28th, 2005, 11:02 AM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
ABSOLUTELY! people buy all that shit instead of putting a little work into making it an accurate and reliable rifle and learning to shoot it, which is a lot more fun. The more Pic rails the more posseur.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old October 28th, 2005, 06:37 PM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
Nice awards/medals, Kevin. What are they for? It seems that they're from the Dept. of Civilian Marksmanship, but what exactly are they and how did you earn them?

-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old October 29th, 2005, 04:09 PM
The Limey The Limey is offline
Marcus Goldhawke
KK4NTX
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: clermont-fl
Posts: 22
my porn

[IMG][/IMG]
____________________
97 Toyota Land Cruiser
05 KLR 650

Kk4ntx

Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old October 29th, 2005, 10:46 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,290
Can I borrow the AR, the SPAS and the large fixed-blade for my Rambo costume?
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old October 30th, 2005, 07:53 AM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Nadir,

The Presidents Hundred is match with a long history shot at the National Matches each year. 30 rounds no sighters, 10 @ 200 yards offhand, 10 @300 yards standing to Prone Rapid Fire, 10@ 600 yards prone slow fire. Perfect score would be a 300. Around 1300 competitors fire it, civilians along side the military teams. Top 100 scores each year make the Presidents Hundred. Winner receives a presentation rifle and a letter from the President of the United States. Military that makes it can wear the Brassard on the uniform.

Distinguished Rifleman is earned by shooting in EIC matches and accumulating 30 points. Course is the 50 round National Match,no sighters. Top 10% of shooters receive "Leg" points towards the badge, i.e. 50 nondistinguished shooters fire the match, 5 get leg points. Gold leg is 10 points, in this example there would be 2 silver legs good for 8 points and 2 bronze legs for 6 points. You can only shoot in 3 EIC(Excellence in Competition) Matches per year plus the National Matches in Camp Perry Ohio. I earned my badge a few years ago as badge #1552 (since 1887). Here is a little history of the Badge.http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/In...ulver_2000.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old October 31st, 2005, 08:56 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by greghirst
Can I borrow the AR, the SPAS and the large fixed-blade for my Rambo costume?

LOL.

Marcus, it's great to see that you're getting into personal weaponry, but you can do much better than what you have now.

Your AR is fine, assuming it's reliable. But that SPAS is a POS. The middle gun in this pic would be a nice substitute for the SPAS:




That SIG is a monstrosity. If you're into the polymer-framed, double-action pistols with high bore profile, try something like this:




That CQC liner lock POS has to go as well. Replace it with some kind of AXIS Lock without a chisel grind. The 710HS is easily my favorite:




That Rambo knife has to go as well. What a useless POS. Replace it with something like this:




And that "CIA Letter Opener" is a mystery. I recommend replacing it with something like this:


Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old October 31st, 2005, 09:47 AM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
Kevin - that was interesting reading - your achievement is noteworthy and you are in rare company. Please remind me to NEVER bet anything of value against our relative shooting skills! LOL - unless I have gotten you well and truly blitzed beforehand.

John - calling the SIG a monstrosity is a bit over the top - sure, it's not a P7, but a monstrosity?

As far as the Trailmaster goes, it's a bit long for my taste - Cold Steel's Recon Scout is a more practical size IMO (gave mine to a buddy who deployed to Afghanistan). A knife I bought recently that I'm pleased with is made by LaRue Tactical.

-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old October 31st, 2005, 10:55 AM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Nadir,

Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old October 31st, 2005, 11:31 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
calling the SIG a monstrosity is a bit over the top - sure, it's not a P7, but a monstrosity?


Yes, a monstrosity. That thing is huge. It's even got the Picatinny rails on it, which I think is pretty ridiculous. Are you supposed to mount a foregrip on it or something?

At least the P200 has LEM capability as one of the possible trigger modes, which is light years ahead of the DA/SA trigger mode on the SIG. The P2000 also has an ambidextrous magazine release, so that the shooter than can release the magazine with his index finger, the way God intended. Put the LEM trigger on the P2000 and it becomes a very usable pistol. It has a higher bore axis than the Glock, but magazine changes are better on the P2000 than on the Glock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
As far as the Trailmaster goes, it's a bit long for my taste - Cold Steel's Recon Scout is a more practical size IMO (gave mine to a buddy who deployed to Afghanistan). A knife I bought recently that I'm pleased with is made by LaRue Tactical.


That Recon Scout doesn't do it for me. If I'm going to go to the trouble of carrying a fixed blade, I would much rather have the longer reach and leverage of the 10" Laredo Bowie. A 7" blade really doesn't have that much more leverage than a 5" fixed blade. You have to go to around 9" to get that tremendous leverage effect. The Recon Scout also doesn't have a sharpened concave clip point, so it has little to no back cut capability.

The Recon Tanto also has a black rubber grip, which I can't stand. Rubber is spongy by nature and it absorbs your cutting/slashing/stabbing force. Try using a rubber-handled hammer and you'll see what I mean. A good deal of your hitting force is absorbed by the rubber handle. Rubber is also harder to index for precise cuts. Try coating a set of chop sticks or a rubber with rubber sleeves and see how far you get. I prefer wood.

That LaRue Rambo knife isn't doing it for me either. It's made of S30V stainless steel, which immediately disqualifies it for me. Strike the back of that blade onto an anvil and I'm guessing it would easily snap. The LaRue Rambo also lacks a sharpened, concave clip point and thus it doesn't have back-cutting ability. And yet, interestingly, that LaRue Rambo knife has a very long clip point, which weakens the blade unnecessarily. Why have such a long clip point if the clip point isn't even usable?

The blade is also too short on the LaRue Rambo, which decreases reach and leverage on that knife to an unacceptable degree. These 6" or 7" fixed blades remind me of pistol-caliber long guns. If you're going to go to the hassle of carrying a long gun, why not chamber it in a real long gun round? I carry a folder for convenience and when I want the power of a fixed blade, I carry a real fixed blade.

And the sheath on that LaRue Rambo is ridiculous. It's designed so that the knife hangs well below the belt line, which means the knife has to swing annoyingly with the leg. That knife is more cumbersome to wear than the larger and heavier Laredo Bowie.

If you want, bring over that LaRue Rambo knife with you the next time you come to the shop and I can show you what the Laredo Bowie can do that the LaRue can't--from back-cutting, slashing, and cleaving--because of its greater length and reach. The Laredo Bowie can easily cleave a 1' long 2x4 in half; I very high doubt the LaRue has the leverage for that. We can also slash some pieces of free-hanging rope and I can also demonstrate for you the back cuts that the Laredo Bowie can do that the Rambo knife can't. I'm a total rookie on the knife, but even then the tremendous advantages of the Laredo Bowie's design will become immediately apparent.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old October 31st, 2005, 01:00 PM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
**Edited to reflect differences between Cold Steel's Laredo Bowie and their Trailmaster (thought they were more alike than they are).**

The Laredo Bowie and the LaRue fill different roles, so I wouldn't expect them to match up well on many tasks. The Laredo is a chopper - balance is well forward of the handle and it weighs 493g. The LaRue is a fighting knife - it's much lighter at about 275g and its balance point is between the cross guard and the finger swell. While I'll grant you the Laredo has more reach, I believe the LaRue will be much faster to maneuver (broadsword vs. saber). True, in camping tasks that doesn't matter at all - but that's why I said they serve different purposes.

I'm not qualified to debate the pro's and con's of one steel/alloy over another, so I'll remain silent on that. Others with far more experience than I have see many positives in the LaRue (for its intended purpose).

A knife that comes to mind which is a more direct comparison to the Trailmaster/Laredo Bowie is the Busse "Battle Mistress" (I concede it's a silly name). Weighing in at 660g it is heavier though a bit shorter at 15.5" overall vs. 15-11/16" and it has a shorter blade at 9.25" vs. 10.5". It is no longer in production, but a close relative (made in the same shop) is the Swamp Rat Knives "Battle Rat" (again, a silly name). A review of these knives is available here. The same site has a favorable review of the Trailmaster & Recon Scout.

For the record, btw, you make reference to the Recon Tanto in your response above - I've never been a fan of Tanto blade geometry.

As for coming to the shop to see what all these blades can do - I'd love to. I'll bring a bunch of knives so we can contrast & compare.

-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old October 31st, 2005, 03:59 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
I'm not sure what the deal is with the P2000, as I have no intention of purchasing one and I'm bummed out that the P2000 has replaced the P7 all together. It's very strange that HK offers the P2000 with the magazine extension and with no flat floorplate. That thing is hideous and it makes the pistol that much larger. I would hope that flat magazine floorplates are forthcoming.

The P2000K might fail to meet the criteria set out by the 1968 Gun Control Act. I'm not sure. Lots of smaller pistols don't quality under the 1968 GCA, and must be imported with adjustable sights and thumb swells to classify as "target" pistols. The P7K3 was like this. I believe the Glock 26 and 27 have to be imported with adjustable sights and then Glock USA changes out the sights to fixed sights. I also believe that's why Glock put the thin thumb swells into the sides of the later Glocks, although I'm not positive on this point.

That LaRue is neither fish nor fowl, i.e., it's not convenient to carry and it doesn't perform either. What exactly is a "fighting knife"? Don't knife fights involve slashing and chopping as well as stabbing? A stab takes a very committed move to perform, especially with a knife as short as the LaRue Rambo. It's very easy for an opponent to slash at your stabbing arm/wrist/hand without exposing himself, and it's even easier for him to do with a real fighting knife like a large Bowie. With a Bowie in my hand, I would much rather slash for an opponents extremities like his hands and forearms than expose myself by trying to reach out and stab him. With the Bowie's power, I can also cleave off his hand at the wrist with a good strike. You can't do this with the LaRue Rambo, as it doesn't have the leverage.

The Bowie is not a dedicated chopper, like a cleaver or a kukri. Neither the cleaver nor kukri posesses any stabbing ability. Neither one of them is a good slasher. And neither one of them offers any back-cut ability. They're dedicated choppers. Rather, the Bowie is a general-purpose blade. It stabs, cuts, slashes, chops, back-cuts, etc. with equal authority. The Bowie is also not slow to accelerate like the kukri and cleaver and doesn't have the severe forward balance that the dedicated choppers do. A proper Bowie is very light-feeling and isn't clumsy at all.

People who prefer stainless steel for working knives have no clue. There is only one way in which stainless steel is superior to carbon steel: stainless steel is more corrosion resistant than carbon steel. This is very important to knife buyers today because the vast majority of people who buy knives today don't use them in any way. Men do not fight with knives today. We are no longer a blade society, and thus we have lost the blade knowledge and skills that blade societies had many centuries ago. For example, we as a society are unable to produce damascus steel today. It's a lost art. The same is true of many knife-fighting techniques and designs. What we value today is based mostly on marketing and appearance rather than function. Take these 5" and 6" fixed blades that are so popular on the market today. If any body actually used these knives today, he would quickly discover that they were far too small to make them usable.

That "Battle Mistress" is a joke, just like the review of it.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old October 31st, 2005, 06:33 PM
Nadir_E
 
Posts: n/a
John - I always appreciate the depth to which you research your subject matter. I don't always agree with your conclusions, but that's the spark that ignites these discussions. I know that your commitment to the Laredo Bowie is more than passing interest - you've obviously done your research and based upon that, made up your mind. I won't try to alter your decision.

Incidentally, I found this while reading up on Bowie knives. Thought you might appreciate it....
Quote:
It was said that a Bowie had to be sharp enough to use as a razor, heavy enough to use as a hatchet, long enough to use as a sword and broad enough to use as a paddle.

Btw, your continued use of "Rambo" to refer to the LaRue is ironic since the knives used in that series of films are far closer in appearance to the Laredo Bowie than the LaRue.


-Nadir
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old November 1st, 2005, 08:49 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadir_E
I know that your commitment to the Laredo Bowie is more than passing interest - you've obviously done your research and based upon that, made up your mind.

Actually, the Laredo Bowie for me is a compromise. Everything in life is a compromise, but the Laredo Bowie for me doesn't strike my idea of the perfect compromise. The Laredo is heavily geared toward the back-cut. The concavity of the sharpened clip point is very much geared toward maximizing the effectiveness the back cut, which makes the tip lie slightly above the axis of thrust. The handle is also straight to maximize the back cut. I prefer the handle to be slightly tilted downward relatively to the axis of the blade to maximize slashes and chops. I also think the knife points a little better for thrusting if the handle is tilted downward slightly and the wrist need not be cocked so much. (A handle cannot be tilted too severely downward through, as the rearward cocking of the wrist during a back cut cannot be performed then.)

This is a great knife design, my idea of the "perfect" Bowie design:






That's a Hell's Belle Bowie from Ontario Knife Company. Bill Bagwell designed it. Note that the concavity of the clip point is less pronounced than on the Laredo Bowie and that the tip lies on the axis of thrust. Thus, this knife stabs every bit as well as a dagger (which cannot slash or chop or cut).

The coffin-shaped handle is similarly shaped to that of the Laredo Bowie, but there are slight differences. The handle is not inline with the axis of the weapon and is pointed downward very slightly, which lets the user "fling" the blade forward during a slash or chop to multiply the impact force. The handle also has rivets on it, which are intended to help with indexing the hand quickly on the handle. The edges of the coffin handle are also sharper and the sides of the handle flatter than the more ovalized handle on the Laredo Bowie, which helps with indexing the blade edge and clip point directions during slashes and chops and back cuts.

That is a superb knife design. Unfortunately, Ontario Knife Company's Bowies are made of stainless steel, which immediately disqualifies them in my mind. Thus, we are stuck with the Laredo Bowie for the time being. This isn't a huge deal to me, because the Laredo Bowie is a very sound design. But I do prefer the Bagwell Bowies.

Here's the line of Bowies made by Ontario Knife Company:

http://www.ontarioknife.com/designer.html

If Ontario Knife Company ever makes a Bagwell Bowie in carbon steel, I'll be on it like a cheap suit, both for my personal Bowie and for shop sales.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old November 1st, 2005, 01:59 PM
KevinNY
 
Posts: n/a
Lots of research there, planning on stabbing someone in particular?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Omega Speedmaster hanchung General 3509 November 19th, 2017 03:36 PM
2005 Omega porn david General 97 May 25th, 2007 04:00 PM
Moore-N-Moore Sporting Clays Pics johnlee Trips / Events / Reports 15 August 3rd, 2005 10:13 AM
Odd visit to a gun shop michael General 1 February 28th, 2005 09:27 AM
More OMEGA Porn - A Revival Of The Moon Watch In Space Use johnlee General 13 January 29th, 2004 08:02 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:12 AM.




Copyright 2001-2012 Expedition Exchange Incorporated. All rights reserved.
Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.