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  #1  
Old December 20th, 2005, 07:28 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Kel-Tec SU-16CA

Has anyone here seen this rifle in person or fired it?:


I haven't seen one in person, but I must admit that I'm kinda digging the idea of it as a knockabout/beater/D90 rifle to replace my Springfield Armory M6 cape gun (which I hate). The buttstock folds like so for compact storage:


The design is such that the folding of the buttstock renders the weapon inoperable, which makes the weapon California-legal (Turner's sells it). The forend may be unfolded for use as a makeshift bipod. The weapon pictured above is the "SU-16A" configuration, with Kalashnikov-type front sight base/hood and 18.5" barrel. The Cali-legal one I'm thinking about looks like this:


I actually prefer the Cali-legal version with the front sight mounted on the gas block and the shorter 16" barrel. The buttstock holds two Kel-Tec 10-shot polymer magazines or one 30-round AR15 magazine. The weapon will feed and fire with AR15 magazines. Two semi-legit reviews I read about the SU-16 both said the weapon functioned flawlessly, which was my biggest concern with a weapon like this.

I might have to do a run to Turners.
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  #2  
Old December 21st, 2005, 08:15 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is offline
Aaron Shrier
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Hmmmm... folded that might fit in the drivers door pocket of my DII...
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  #3  
Old December 21st, 2005, 10:26 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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the whole action and trigger assembly is exposed when the gun is folded???!!!
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  #4  
Old December 21st, 2005, 01:58 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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I think the trigger and internals are exposed. Not a huge deal to me. I'm more worried about how tight the buttstock is when it's locked into place. I get the uneasy feeling the buttstock is all wiggly. The same goes for the forend.
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  #5  
Old December 21st, 2005, 07:21 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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I was reading the Kel-Tec site and it shows the Kel-Tec's method of operation.

Here the weapon is in battery and the hammer cocked:


Here the hammer has fallen on the firing pin and the bullet has passed the gas port:


And here's the Kel-Tec with the bolt group at the rear and the empty case ejecting:


Note the rear of the receiver fully encapsulates the bolt carrier, so I'm not sure how this weapon disassembles.

I'm kinda digging the design of this Keltec. The method of operation appears to be Kalashnikov with two primary mods: (1) the bolt head features the Stoner multi-lug design rather than dual opposed lugs; and (2) the recoil spring impinges on the piston head rather than the rear of the bolt carrier.

Now I'm really digging this SU-16 thing, especially the very simple method of operation. If it works, it could be a sweet beater rifle.
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  #6  
Old December 21st, 2005, 08:39 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Oh man.

That rifle does nothing for me. Why the need for the folding stock??

It's truly sad here in California when looking for a good semi-auto plinker that your choices are limited to that or a mini-14 or??

I did once look at a Robinson Arms M96 carbine that supposedly is Cal-legal when purchased without the pistol grip. I didn't like it and it does NOT feel comfortable to me without the pistol grip. It's also rather heavy compared to an AR or mini-14. Bolt is multi-lugged like the AR but uses an AK-like gas piston system. You also wouldn't like it John as it has a rather FN FAL-like bore axis.

I think the WWII-vintage M1 carbine I purchased last year from my brother-in-law is my favorite plinker right now (not really a "beater"). I don't like the .30 cal but I do like the historical "feel" it has.
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  #7  
Old December 22nd, 2005, 09:05 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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You guys are judging this Kel-Tec thing much too harshly. Of course it's a piece of shit. It certainly looks like a piece of shit. It probably feels like a piece of shit. But that's sort of the point of it. It's a cheap beater, one that I won't even care if I mangled it on the trail from 100 lbs. of recovery gear bouncing on it or if it corroded from neglect. Basically my only real requirement for the Kel-Tec would be that it feed, fire, and eject reliably, and not fall apart during operation. If it does those things, that's enough for me.

If I want to shoot something nice, I have lots of nice rifles already. But I don't take these on offroading trips because they'll get mangled and they're too long to store inside my dinky truck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greghirst
Why the need for the folding stock??

The folding stock is actually a big feature for me. I have lots of long guns, but they're difficult to transport. This is true even for daily life but the problem becomes much greater with my truck loaded for trips.

The D90's cargo bed is really short. Even with the truck empty, I have to put long guns in diagonally in the cargo area to shut the cargo door, if you can believe that one. For example, I transport my K-80 in a Galco leather slip. That actually has to go diagonally in the bed. I can't close the cargo door if the shotgun is oriented longitudinally with the vehicle.

If my truck were loaded for a trip, there's no way I could take along any of my current long guns with the exception of the M6 cape gun, and I hate that POS. The M6's extractor operates only through spring action and there's no camming action on it at all. Thus, extraction is very weak and .22 Hornet cases routinely stick inside the chamber. If I don't have a cleaning rod handy, I can't shoot the rifle barrel until I get home and knock out the stuck case with a cleaning rod. What a pile of shit.

So my beater/D90 gun would have to be small enough to fit inside one of my Troy Smith tool boxes. That means either a folding stock, a take-down gun, or store the weapon disassembled.
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  #8  
Old December 22nd, 2005, 09:27 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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I love my 1944 Winchester M1 carbine.

Like Greg said, the round is pretty odd, but it's a great truck gun and for me a fun historical gun (even if there were 8 million of them made).
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  #9  
Old December 22nd, 2005, 09:29 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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I also have a no.5 jungle carbine that could fill the same roll. Certainly that bolt is reliable and tough.
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  #10  
Old December 22nd, 2005, 07:04 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I love my 1944 Winchester M1 carbine...but it's a great truck gun and for me a fun historical gun (even if there were 8 million of them made).

I couldn't agree more. Nice choice, Jack.
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  #11  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 07:54 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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8 million? I didn't know there were so many M1 carbines produced.

Does anyone know how many M1 Garands were produced?
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  #12  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 12:25 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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less if you can believe that.
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  #13  
Old December 23rd, 2005, 12:49 PM
SmellyAlbatross
 
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I have shot the CA briefly. It is a bit better than the "A" or alpha version...they all feel extrememly cheap and flimsy, but they are in fact pretty tough. There was an amateur video floating around on the SU where some guy was tossing it into the snow and freezing water, dirt and all kinds of crap, and it still worked fine. The AR mag thing is nice, too. Of the few CA legal choices, and for a truck gun where close enough accuracy is good enough...this one is not bad. 650.00 or whatever they are going for seems a little steep for what they are, though.


I say...M1A baby!
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  #14  
Old December 24th, 2005, 11:20 AM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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Well the M1 carbine is about 35-36" long. Shorter than a 10/22. In fact I can put mine in a 10/22 soft case.

Granted mint historical versions run quite a bit but you can buy them for as little as 250-300 depending on condition and maker. I've seen some of the Japanese Howa-made surplus versions pretty cheap as well as decent remans for around $500. Replacement parts are cheap as well.

IBM even made them during WWII John-LOL
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  #15  
Old December 24th, 2005, 01:17 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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IMI also does a new production M1 carbine.


National Postal Meter also made the gun.

But I can see your argument about .30 carbine ballistics not making it more viable than a pistol.

I think the .223 would be ideal. For weight, capacity and above all penetration.

It's sloppy but I don't mind the mini 14 all that much. It's a derivative of the M1 carbine/ M14 action anyways.
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  #16  
Old December 24th, 2005, 03:08 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Oh no, .30 Carbine and 5.56 are substantial steps up from a pistol. No argument from me there. They're not true rifle calibers but they're much much more than a pistol round and they're viable and practical weapons I think. One can ventilate many more things and from a much greater range with the .30 Carbine and 5.56 than he can with a pistol.

I was talking more about the pistol-caliber weapons like the Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm Luger or .45 ACP. I think those are sort of a waste of space because they don't really have any greater reach or power than a pistol. They're just a little easier to hit with.

An exception to the pistol-caliber carbine thing might be one of the 1894's or similar lever actions or autos chambered in .44 Mag. Those are actually serious weapons I think.
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  #17  
Old December 24th, 2005, 04:58 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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I believe Jack is referring to my comment that the .30 cal is "not much better than a pistol round" from another thread. That's rather an exaggeration. The .30 cal. is pretty good up to 300 yards. That's way better than most common pistol rounds (9mm, .45, etc.)

The 5.56 has seen alot more development and choices avaliable than the .30 cal. A mini-14 in 5.56 wouldn't really be a bad choice but doesn't have that "historical patina" that I kinda like in the old M1 carbine.

I think John's ideal compact plinker truck gun would be an HK53 w/ retract buttstock. Whoops, back where we started...
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  #18  
Old December 27th, 2005, 08:31 AM
SmellyAlbatross
 
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It sounds more and more like that Kel-tec is calling you

Even though you are much more of a "purist" when it comes to this stuff than I...

I too agree that the Kel tec is sort of like the fat chick you bang but don't tell your friends about.
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  #19  
Old January 1st, 2006, 09:46 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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This could be my "beater" truck gun (I've seen these as low as $480-500):

http://www.auto-ordnance.com/ao_aom110_f.html

For a "keeper" version look here:

http://home.att.net/~ra-carbines/carbines.html

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  #20  
Old January 1st, 2006, 10:59 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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oh shit, my winchester is more valuable than i thought.
at least quite a bit more than i paid for it a long time ago.
cool.
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  #21  
Old January 3rd, 2006, 09:16 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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I ended up buying the Kel-Tec. Turners had three different configurations there, but I ended up buying the SU-16CA configuration:


The weapon isn't bad at all. The forend has a really nice and snug fit on the barrel. The buttstock is very slightly wiggly, but not bad at all. If this thing feeds, fires, and ejects reliably, it'll be a very nice beater carbine.

One thing that bummed me out slightly is that the CA configuration has a chubby barrel. The other two versions on display at Turners had considerably thinner barrels. Why Kel-Tec put a heavy barrel on this weapon is beyond me. The muzzle is also threaded and has a knurled thread protector on it. Again, why? If the CA version had a razor-thin barrel that was 16.1" long, no muzzle threads, and no Picatinny rail on the receiver, then it would be so much nicer as a knockabout beater.
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  #22  
Old January 4th, 2006, 11:39 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Well I think this is cool.
I'd love to shoot it.

plus you're now the envy of mall security guards everywhere.
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  #23  
Old January 4th, 2006, 10:28 PM
mkronmal
 
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What did that set you back? Up here in WA, I don't really need a beater, since I can carry my .45 on me.
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  #24  
Old January 5th, 2006, 11:07 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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That Kel-Tec was $650 at Turner's.
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  #25  
Old January 12th, 2006, 06:33 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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I just picked up the Kel-Tec.

Man, what a pile of shit. This ain't no HK43.
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