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  #1  
Old April 17th, 2006, 05:24 AM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 571
I think I've caught the bug...

I spent yesterday up at my uncle's where he live in a farm house upstate NY. He and my cousin are into bird hunting and have one of those machines that throw the clay targets, they asked if I was interested in giving it a try. After hanging out with John, Jack and Charles I figured I'd see what this is all about. Needless to say, it was fun and quite exhilarating... I think I'm hooked. Despite living in NYC this was my first time shooting a gun of any kind (other than a bb gun as a kid, but I don't think that counts).
Being a photographer and I've always know I was left eye dominant, just never how much. My cousin instructed me how to hold the shotgun and to keep both eyes open. I questioned this as it seemed impossible to properly aim at the target, needless to say I kept missing. As I would hold the gun all I would see is the left side of the barrel. My left eye prevented my right eye from properly seeing over the barrel to aim. I told him my dilemma so he said try it with you left eye close. He released two clays and bam, nailed them both. He told me the thing to do in a case like that is to blur the left eye of your shooting glasses so your right eye is forced to be the dominant one. I believe he called it "dotting".
Is this a common problem for people?

I had a great time, a bit scary at first... thinking about the gun firing and trying to prepare for the recoil.

If any of you have an extra gun and want to take a rookie out, I'm game. Come on John, your always looking for a good excuse to go to Moore n Moore. Your radio project should be done soon, right?
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  #2  
Old April 17th, 2006, 08:26 AM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
Moore-n-Moore next Sunday.
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  #3  
Old April 17th, 2006, 09:03 AM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by traveltoad
Moore-n-Moore next Sunday.

I have plans on the 23rd (and so should you). I leave for Japan on the 30th. Any way we could go on the 29th? Maybe John and Ho can take a day off?
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  #4  
Old April 17th, 2006, 09:15 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheki
Being a photographer and I've always know I was left eye dominant, just never how much. My cousin instructed me how to hold the shotgun and to keep both eyes open. I questioned this as it seemed impossible to properly aim at the target, needless to say I kept missing. As I would hold the gun all I would see is the left side of the barrel. My left eye prevented my right eye from properly seeing over the barrel to aim. I told him my dilemma so he said try it with you left eye close. He released two clays and bam, nailed them both. He told me the thing to do in a case like that is to blur the left eye of your shooting glasses so your right eye is forced to be the dominant one. I believe he called it "dotting".
Is this a common problem for people?


It is a common problem. For example, I'm right-handed but I'm left eye dominant. I don't know if I was just born this way, or if it's because I grew up playing golf. But I'm left eye dominant.

There's a debate about cross eye dominance. Some people say that once you've reached a certain age, it is impossible to train the weak eye to sight. Others say it's possible to train the weak eye to sight. I tend to agree with the latter, since I've been able to train my weak eye to sight with rifle, shotgun, and pistol. I will never be able to train my weak eye to become the master eye. I agree that is impossible. But I shoot rifle (with aperture sights, open sights, and optical sights), shotgun, and pistol with both eyes open, and I sight using my weak eye.

I've tried the dot thing and it didn't work for me at all. I much prefer to sight with both eyes on the target, even though I'm left eye dominant. I have a bad tendency to aim the shotgun when shooting with only one eye. Also, I feel too much binocular vision is lost with this method and it's very difficult to get the line of the target. Many people use the dot and get good results though.

Some weak-eyed people track the target using both eyes and then wink the master eye the instant before releasing the shot. From what I hear, this technique can work very well. Many champion shooters use this technique. I've tried it but I get better results keeping both of my eyes open, since I have a bad tendency to aim the shotgun whenever I wink my left/master eye.

Another method is to use prescription shooting glasses. You should always wear eye protection when shooting anyway, so this is not a big deal. Let's say you have perfect 20/20 vision in both eyes. You can fit your left lens with a prescription that will blur the target slightly at distance. When you're sighting the target and get a crystal-clear focus on the rings and ridges, you know you are looking at it with your right/weak eye and there is no loss of binocular vision as there is with the dot.

Another way to handle cross dominance is to shoot a SxS. That broad sighting plane seems to help cross dominant shooters "train" their weak eye to look down the barrels.

Cross dominance can also help you on some shot angles. I normally shoot what is called "constant lead", and the target would be obscured by the barrels on driven shots and springing teals when they're rising. Most people have to resort to another style of obtaining forward allowance on these target presentations. But being left eye dominant, I can use constant lead no problem. I don't even think about it. This is called "looking through the barrels".

There are many methods to cure cross dominance. I wouldn't let it deter you from shotgunning at all. I'm cross dominant but I don't even think about it now. I just use The Force. I just look at the target and release the shot.

Aaron was at the shop last saturday, and we talked about going to Moore N Moore this Sunday. I realize you're booked, but we can do it another day. If you want to join us, you are more than welcome to. You can borrow one of my guns. I can bring both repeater and O/U for you to try, and you can see which action type you prefer. I wish I had a SxS for you to try as well, but I don't.
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  #5  
Old April 17th, 2006, 09:49 AM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
KC2PFB
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
...Aaron was at the shop last saturday, and we talked about going to Moore N Moore this Sunday. I realize you're booked, but we can do it another day. If you want to join us, you are more than welcome to. You can borrow one of my guns. I can bring both repeater and O/U for you to try, and you can see which action type you prefer. I wish I had a SxS for you to try as well, but I don't.

I too am right handed and I guess would then also be considered cross eye dominant. When I got home I but on my sunglasses and smudged the left lens. In an attempt to mock holding a shotgun I placed a broom stick to my shoulder. It seemed to work, but who could really tell under those conditions, we'll have to field test it.

Would love to go out with you guys; unfortunately, a Sunday isn't going to work for me. I'll be in LA tomorrow and will stop by the shop, we'll see if we can figure something out.
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  #6  
Old April 17th, 2006, 11:53 AM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
KC2PFB
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by CLee
...This time Dim first Clays second.

Are you talking Dim Sum? I love when you ask them what's inside and they simply reply with "meat".

as far as the Chinese are concerned, I believe chicken testicles are considered meat.

Hey John, my wife said she'll show you how to eat balut (that didn't sound right). We'll just have to find a place that sells it, I'll ask around the Filipino markets. This I really want to see.
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  #7  
Old April 17th, 2006, 01:24 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
KI6CQL
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,290
That reminds me of the time I went to a Filipino restaurant and couldn't read the menu. After picking out several things based on the waitress' statements I had ordered one dish that she said was "half a peach or mango". It came back with some red syrup all over it. I asked what was in the red syrup.

She said it was pig's blood. I don't eat pork. Yummy...
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  #8  
Old April 17th, 2006, 02:21 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Balut? Oh great. I'll happily watch your wife eat it and not get grossed out, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to eat it.

I was thinking again about cross dominance while waiting in line at the post office, and thought of two more ways to conquer it.

The first is to shoot left handed. This is a very obvious solution, so obvious I didn't even think about when I replied above. Since you're new to shooting long guns, it won't matter to you as much if you shot left-handed. You won't have to unlearn anything. If you're shooting a repeater (which typically come with straight stocks), then it won't make any difference. If you prefer a double (which typically come with bent buttstocks), then this might be a problem. You would have to find a left-hand stock or just tilt your head the way Aaron does with his Beretta.

The second solution is some sort of HI-VIZ sight like so:




That fiber optic piece gathers a lot of light and glows very brightly on the ends. If you're looking down the bore line, the sight glows bright red or green or or orange or yellow or whatevever like so:




If you're sighting with your left/weak eye, the sight won't be glowing for you because the sight isn't bright on the sides. Your brain recognizes this and shifts to your right/weak eye during the shot. When you're tracking the bird, you'll see the glow in your peripheral vision and know you're shooting with the correct eye.

The HI-VIZ is hideously ugly, but it beats not being able to shoot at all.
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  #9  
Old April 17th, 2006, 06:14 PM
traveltoad traveltoad is online now
Aaron Shrier
KI6BCA
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Fernando Valley
Posts: 2,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
I was thinking again about cross dominance while waiting in line at the post office, and thought of two more ways to conquer it.

At least something good came out of tax day.
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  #10  
Old April 17th, 2006, 06:18 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I suspect David will get hooked on this shotgunning thing. I don't know if he has the stomach for wingshooting, but I think he will enjoy clay target immensely. That bit about "it was fun and quite exhilarating... I think I'm hooked" says a lot, even after only time of shooting.

Being the Big Dawg that he is, I think David needs a 4-Bore. We'll see.
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  #11  
Old April 17th, 2006, 08:18 PM
sheki sheki is offline
David Shechter
KC2PFB
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Balut? I was thinking again about cross dominance while waiting in line at the post office, and thought of two more ways to conquer it.

So just to confirm, you were in line at the post office and you were thinking about shotguns? Hmmm, I wonder why? Don't you need to be a postal employee to think of things like that?



See you guys in the afternoon.
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  #12  
Old April 17th, 2006, 08:26 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Actually, I think about guns almost every time I'm at the post office. The 90501 post office has clear plastic guards in front of the postal workers to prevent robberies. The guards are about 1" thick. Almost very time I see them, I wonder to myself, "I wonder if these would stop .308?"
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  #13  
Old April 18th, 2006, 08:39 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee

The HI-VIZ is hideously ugly, but it beats not being able to shoot at all.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEK!!!


fuck it.
just point and pull the trigger.

you'll hit something sometime.





maybe you could train with the hi viz and take it off later, but man oh man ...
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  #14  
Old April 18th, 2006, 08:42 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Actually, I think about guns almost every time I'm at the post office. The 90501 post office has clear plastic guards in front of the postal workers to prevent robberies. The guards are about 1" thick. Almost very time I see them, I wonder to myself, "I wonder if these would stop .308?"

I'm curious about that thick ballistic glass too and I often wonder the same.

well?
could it?

you telling me you don't know?

tech it out john!
go ballistic!

I'm guessing it will stop 7.62x39 and other intermediates, but not full size rifle cartridges or short magnums with a heavy bullet.
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  #15  
Old April 18th, 2006, 09:10 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
WZ7V
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 864
I can add at least one data point to the "bullet proof glass" discussion. Being in the plastics industry for the last 15 years, I've seen a lot of experiments. A friend of mine worked at a plastics fabricating company and had access to polycarbonate sheet. He made 2 different sheets to test with various rounds. The first sheet was a simple 1" thick polycarbonate sheet; the second was 4 1/4" polycarbonate sheets stuck together.

The 44 Mag bullet didn't penetrate that far into either sheet. The 308 Winchester sailed right through the 1" solid sheet. The 308 stopped right after the first 1/4" section of the laminated sheet.
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  #16  
Old April 18th, 2006, 09:43 AM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
K6YJ
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
I'm curious about that thick ballistic glass too and I often wonder the same.

well?
could it?

you telling me you don't know?

tech it out john!
go ballistic!

I'm guessing it will stop 7.62x39 and other intermediates, but not full size rifle cartridges or short magnums with a heavy bullet.


But wait. I thought .308 was also an intermediate round. If the 7.62x39 is stopped, wouldn't the .308 also be stopped? Wouldn't then the .308 M80 load be stopped but the .30-06 M2 load would sail right through? Didn't Ian Hogg and the History Channel say so?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_Rupp
The 308 stopped right after the first 1/4" section of the laminated sheet.


Holy shit.
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  #17  
Old April 18th, 2006, 10:33 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
But wait. I thought .308 was also an intermediate round. If the 7.62x39 is stopped, wouldn't the .308 also be stopped? Wouldn't then the .308 M80 load be stopped but the .30-06 M2 load would sail right through? Didn't Ian Hogg and the History Channel say so?



I was actually asking.

Mike sort of answered.

Mike is their comporable quality and design across the board for this sort of thing?
Can we assume most real world ballistic barrier to be about the same, just differentiating based on thickness and lamination?
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  #18  
Old April 18th, 2006, 11:16 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is offline
Mike Rupp
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mercer Island, WA
Posts: 864
Jack, I did a little research on the web and find out there really is a lot of different types of bullet resistant glass. Some use actual glass on the outside layer and then have PC behind it. But I think its safe to say that most of the stuff that you see out there will stop the commonly available high power rifle ammo.
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  #19  
Old April 18th, 2006, 12:15 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
Several years ago, I was watching some show on the Discovery Channel. This is when the Discovery Channel had a lot of military/gun stuff on the air. The show was about armored passenger vehicles and how they're made.

They showed this one car in a demo. I think it was a Jeep Grand Cherokee but I can't remember. The car was parked in an open field. All of a sudden, this guy with a FAL runs up next to it and lets off several rounds at one of the windows from point blank range. I was rolling.

Then my laughter suddenly stopped. I couldn't believe it, but the window stopped the rounds. I could see how the window could stop maybe the first round, but I would have thought the window would be severely weakened after that. But it stopped something like four or five rounds if I recall correctly. The impacts were very close to one another too.

I don't know how thick the glass was, but I thought that was unreal performance.
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  #20  
Old April 18th, 2006, 01:27 PM
Matt Kendrick Matt Kendrick is offline
Matt Kendrick
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Join Date: May 2005
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 363
something similar john....history channel piece:

http://www.internationalarmoringcorp.../16.aspx?mov=3
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  #21  
Old April 18th, 2006, 01:35 PM
david david is offline
David Woo
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posts: 122
just finished a new casino project in LV...

and the amount of ballistic resistant construction was staggering. The owner's suites, their secure corridor to their underground parking area, the counting room, cash room, the loading dock....
They and their insurance company required a level four facility, in terms of resistance, the highest level for civilian use.
Levels 5 thru 8 are reserved for government and military spcifications.
http://www.actionbullet.com/ratings.html

btw, some of Gabe Suarez's class exercises involve vehicles, both seated inside defending and outside attacking: very interesting to see the effects of small arms fire on normal vehicle body panels, laminated auto glass etc...

DW
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  #22  
Old April 18th, 2006, 03:18 PM
chrisvonc chrisvonc is offline
Chris von C
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Va. USA
Posts: 342
I'll chime in on the left/right eye x-training. I used to be very much into target shooting and bird hunting growing up on a farm and shooting was a passion of mine up until my late 20's when I suffered damage in my right eye that has caused me loss of center vision in it, making things a bit tough for a right eye/Right handed dominant shooter. At first it completely impacted my rifle shooting but oddly, pistols I was still very much accurate with. As I got older the center vision black spot has grown to a complete vision dead zone for straight on center vision for anything. Its very small dead zone of sight but center enough, I have no chance to sight a rifle anymore with my right.

But last year, I was invited out on a Quail hunt with family members and said I would go along but really just to spend a day out in the fields with my brother and father. The day before they took me to an outdoor range so we could see if I could adapt to shooting lefty.

It was dismal. At the end of the session I was 0/50 on the clay targets, not even close to frightening one of them into breaking. Very disheartening but I was a little comforted by the fact I have never shot clay well at all, ever. But the next day during the morning we were coming up on covey after covey, it was a lot of fun.

At one of the breaks my brother talked me into giving it a go and see if going lefty in the field would go better. Started out just as bad at the range when we hit the first 3 coveys but after that, my A game kicked back in with a rampage it seemed, and over the next 2 hours, I scored 8 birds but also had about 8 misses in that run too but the more relaxed I got, the more dialed in I became and by the end of the day, shooting lefty was not feeling clumsy and awkward as it was earlier in the day and the day before.

Anyway that was a little more winded than I thought it would be but my point is that for some, you defiantly can train your weaker side to compensate. For me it just took a lot of shells and to relax. I was so happy after the day was done and am looking forward to bird season starting up again later this year and will start shopping around for a good gun this summer most likely.
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  #23  
Old April 18th, 2006, 03:31 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Location: Torrance, CA
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That's sweet, Chris. Well done.
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  #24  
Old April 19th, 2006, 04:04 PM
johnlee johnlee is offline
John Lee
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Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 16,150
I had to go to the 90501 post office again today to ship an APO order, and took a close look at the protective plexiglass. It's about 1.5" thick and composed of seven different layers. Four of the layers are thick and three are almost paper thin. It looks Armageddon.
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  #25  
Old April 20th, 2006, 08:47 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
KI6CTP
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 3,490
Lightest grain bullet to yield consistent penetration through non-ballistic barriers (sheet metal, glass, concrete, bone, tissue)?
12"?
Obviously this is going to vary a lot, but I'm wondering if the 69grain 5.56 at normal velocities is the bottom or whether any of the hot 45grain rounds will do the same.

What about the FN FiveSeven?

hmmm....
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