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  #326  
Old May 9th, 2011, 06:29 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Land Rover has changed. For example:


Am I the only one who thinks that photo is funny?

In the rear you have the Range Rover Classic.

Then the P38.

Then the Mk3.

What is on the right? Is it a Mk3 or a Mk4?

Land Rover now changes a few details and suddenly it's a new model?

Land Rover also did that with the LR4:


You have an LR3 with new grill and such and suddenly it's a new model--the LR4.

These new Land Rovers aren't built to last. In fact, they're quite the opposite. They're now built to be obsolete in three or four years.
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  #327  
Old May 9th, 2011, 09:05 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
Land Rover has changed. For example:


Am I the only one who thinks that photo is funny?

In the rear you have the Range Rover Classic.

Then the P38.

Then the Mk3.


The P38 is looking good in that pic.
I think we're all used to seeing so many gangster beaters that we forget how striking a crisp P38 looks.
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  #328  
Old May 10th, 2011, 06:18 AM
dchapman dchapman is online now
Daniel Chapman
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That new L405 with the chicken shit grill is sounding like a badass mall cruiser. I was at a function not too long ago where they were talking about the new Rangie. Supposedly the new (2012MY or 2013) will be 30% lighter with a 600hp supercharged version available. I can't imagine what that's going to be like to drive.
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  #329  
Old May 10th, 2011, 06:31 AM
DougG DougG is offline
Douglas G. Gable
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
The P38 is looking good in that pic.
I think we're all used to seeing so many gangster beaters that we forget how striking a crisp P38 looks.

I agree. I think the P38 could be the best looking Range Rover. I miss mine.
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  #330  
Old May 10th, 2011, 08:39 AM
Mike_Rupp Mike_Rupp is online now
Mike Rupp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougG
I agree. I think the P38 could be the best looking Range Rover. I miss mine.

I think the P38 has a dated look. When it first came out, I really thought it looked fantastic. Now when I look at one, it is just another car on the road. There is no emotion there anymore.

On the other hand, a non-boogered Classic still looks fantastic. It really is a timeless, beautiful automobile.
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  #331  
Old May 10th, 2011, 09:23 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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One beef I have with both the P38 and Mk3 is that they're not really classless. They're more Uptown cars. For example, you don't really see the P38 and Mk3 in cop car variants, ambulance variants, SAS variants, fire truck variants, and so on. That was one thing that really made the Classic into a classless truck. The P38 and Mk3 are still nice, but they have the capability to be more than nice.

A Mk3 ambulance would be weird given the chassis design, but I think the P38 could have handled the changes just like the previous Land Rovers. But somewhere along the line, Land Rover decided not to do the weirdo work truck variants any longer. It sucks too, because something was definitely lost there.

Even without the weirdoness of the variants, the Classic just had something about it that made it classless even in stock form. Here's that SAS pic again:


I think this pic is from the same exercise:


You have two SAS guys opening the tailgate, gearing up, and then posing for pics with the MP5 and gas mask. This wouldn't work on a P38 or Mk3.

All of the foregoing applies to offroad as well. I'm not talking about traction or capability here. Rather, I'm talking about the tenor of the vehicles themselves.
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  #332  
Old May 10th, 2011, 11:12 PM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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No?

I'm not as used to seeing P38s as work vehicles, but when I do it doesn't look wrong to me.



Check out the RRC style tri-spokes on a P38. Weirdo. It's not even the same bolt pattern.


Then again, like Mike, I remember being blown away by the P38 when it came out because it was SO much more elaborate than the Classic.
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  #333  
Old May 11th, 2011, 12:04 AM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSQ
No?

No.

Those are basically standard P38s that were dressed up with sirens and stickers. That's not classless. At least it's not as classless as the Classic was.

Even these Classics strike me as more workmanlike than the the P38s you posted:


Sure these are stockers as well, but at least they have the weirdo Hella 500 fogs below the front bumper. These are at least a little funky as well with the Hella 550s below the bumper:


The steel Rostyles also make a slight but substantial difference here. These are steel wheels. The P38s you showed had alloys.

I don't recall ever seeing an ambulance variant of the P38 like these:


I don't recall ever seeing a 6x6 variant of the P38 like this:


I don't recall ever seeing the SAS use the P38 like this:


I don't recall ever seeing other military forces use the P38 like this:


Did the P38 set any records like this one?:


I can't think of a single expedition that used the P38 like this:


The P38 came out when? 1995? The Camel Trophy went to 1998 if I recall. There was never a P38 Camel Trophy that I know of. I've never seen a P38 with a Camel Trophy roll cage:


Also, how long was the P38 in production? Eight years or thereabouts? The Classic was in production 25 years.

I'm not saying the P38 is a turd. Rather, I'm saying it's not classless. The P38 is Uptown. That's why there was no P38 in this thread until I posted that line-up of Range Rovers. And I posted that pic only to show that Land Rover had strayed.
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  #334  
Old May 11th, 2011, 08:27 AM
mjv mjv is offline
marcus vitale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnlee
One beef I have with both the P38 and Mk3 is that they're not really classless. They're more Uptown cars.



i agree, the RRC had a much different " classless " image. its one thing i miss most about the RRC.
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  #335  
Old May 11th, 2011, 08:37 AM
mjv mjv is offline
marcus vitale
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i miss the classic, but the Mk3 is serving me so well i cant really look back.
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  #336  
Old May 11th, 2011, 11:06 AM
montanablur montanablur is offline
Sinuhe Xavier
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Isn't this sentiment true across most car manufacturers? When was the last time anyone made a truly classless vehicle?
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  #337  
Old May 12th, 2011, 09:35 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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What makes the Classic truly "classless" isn't because it was available in so many variants (So were Series Land Rovers).

No, it's because the very same vehicle was equally at home across an entire spectrum of use and it does it so well.

How many vehicles can you say are entirely appropriate to drive your family to the country, haul feed to your sheep on your farm, haul your horses to an event, or take your dogs with you to hunt upland game, and then later in the day drive your family to the Royal Opera House?

That same vehicle could, without extensive modifications, be an exceptional expeditionary vehicle to take across Asia or Africa as well as meet many police and urban military needs.

And it did all this very well for 25 years.

Neither the P38 or Mark III can even come close to that.
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  #338  
Old May 12th, 2011, 10:08 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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I'm not sure there's a single test for which particular Land Rover is classless and what is not. At least I can't articulate such a test. For me, I go more by indicia and gut than by some litmus test. I kinda use the Justice Stewart's test for pornography: I can't define exactly what pornography is, but know it when I see it.

Quote:
I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.

Jacobellis v. Ohio 378 U.S. 184 (1964) (Stewart, J., concurring)

For example, one test I have is JATE rings. Does a particular Land Rover look and feel right with JATE rings? That's a test and not the test.

Same for steel wheels. Does a Land Rover look and feel right when it is fitted with steel wheels?

The variants is just another test. Did a particular Land Rover exist in a lot of different variants? Like the other tests, this test isn't conclusive. However, it does shed some light on the question. Why would such a variant even exist if it were not used for a particular purpose other than for the standard vehicle?

Furthermore, classless is desirable but it isn't everything. Which is more classless, the Mk3 or the LR3? I would have to say the LR3, while it isn't really "classless" like the Rangie Classic, is more classless than the Mk3 is. But I'll take a Mk3 over an LR3 any day. It's not even close.
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  #339  
Old May 12th, 2011, 10:48 PM
greghirst greghirst is offline
Greg Hirst
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There is also an element of originality and purity of design that the Classic has that I don't think any LR3, P38, or Mark III will ever have.

When the original Range Rover was released it actually exceeded the capabilities of the Series Land Rover. At the same time brought refinement and upscale luxury that was never seen before in a four-wheel drive.

Spen King was a genius. His uncles may have been brilliant in seeing a need in the market and meeting it in 1948-there is no arguing that they largely copied the design of the Willys MB.

I remember when the P38 came out I was rather disappointed. It was continuing to move in the direction away from "doing everything very well" towards more luxury. In my opinion it continued with some of the worst elements of the last Classic models (air suspension, increasing electronic dependence) and at the same time it moved away from many classic design elements that identified a Range Rover as a Range Rover ("Square" headlights? Seriously? Those abbreviated hood castellations, etc.). And I couldn't believe the movement of the differentials to the "wrong" side of the vehicle-who thought of that? Expedition or off road trails? Is there enough BeCM's in the world?

By the time the Mark III was released I was at least relieved that they brought back many original design trademarks of the Classic in an updated look. And it still does many things very well with an element of luxury. The air suspension is much more reliable (and affordable to fix now thanks to Arnott's rebuilt units) I have no problem driving it on moderate off road trails, hauling the dog, hauling the horse to events and, at the same time, drive the family to the opera.
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  #340  
Old May 18th, 2011, 09:40 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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I wouldn't say that the P38 can match the RRC for "Classless" qualities but only that it's not out of place in a variety of roles. It was certainly more uptown but that isn't to say it can't go to work, and when it does it's not out of place.

I think one of the small tests is whether rubber mats or carpet are equally appropriate in a vehicle. All of the Range Rovers and Discos have this quality, but in this case I think the 90/110 comes up short. That vehicle might often appear elegant because of its setting or occupants, but at its heart it's a tractor. Carpet floor mats in a 90/110 are a joke. You might be able to show up in a tuxedo driving one, but it will never fit like the other Land Rovers do. To me the 90/110 is more timeless than classless.
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  #341  
Old May 21st, 2011, 11:35 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Chelsea tractor.

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  #342  
Old June 1st, 2011, 12:47 PM
stu454 stu454 is online now
Stuart Ivie
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How to escort a war criminal.
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  #343  
Old June 1st, 2011, 03:55 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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Quote:
Serbian gendarmes secure a convoy allegedly carrying Bosnian Serb ex-army chief Ratko Mladic from the Special court for war crimes in Belgrade to the city airport on May 31, 2011. The alleged mastermind of the Srebrenica massacre and other atrocities during the 1992-95 Bosnia war, Mladic is facing charges of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity at the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) based in The Hague.
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  #344  
Old June 22nd, 2011, 02:29 PM
blue blue is offline
Bill Gill, aka chump hater
 
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1976 RR in my mechanic's shop. About 50K original kilometers.

Rostyle steel wheels, 2-door, exposed fuel filler, the works. And left hand drive.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 76RR.jpg (352.9 KB, 61 views)
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  #345  
Old June 22nd, 2011, 03:43 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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These last two Rangies should be in the snorkel thread.
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  #346  
Old June 22nd, 2011, 05:04 PM
blue blue is offline
Bill Gill, aka chump hater
 
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That 76 has potential. Needs some good unfucking for sure but it has potential. I asked what it was in for. The mechanic just laughed and said "everything".
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  #347  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 09:53 AM
JSQ JSQ is offline
Jack Quinlan
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Save it, Bill.
Make him an offer.
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  #348  
Old June 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM
blue blue is offline
Bill Gill, aka chump hater
 
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I was told it was not for sale. The owner has had it for "years" (decades?) and barely uses it. It just sits in a garage.

What do you think it's worth, assuming that all systems need a thorough overhaul? The interior was not in the greatest shape either. The paint job is pretty good and has a nice patina. From what the mechanic was saying, I'm assuming that the owner is dropping a few grand into it for shit like brakes & wiring. I have no idea what condition the motor & drivetrain is in.

I think I might give them a call and sniff around some more...
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  #349  
Old June 24th, 2011, 06:10 AM
stu454 stu454 is online now
Stuart Ivie
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  #350  
Old June 24th, 2011, 12:39 PM
johnlee johnlee is online now
John Lee
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